Getting Rid Of Kim?

[Prax]

I like them both. Pulaski can be a "turn off" but she's grown on me. I used to not like anyone giving Picard a hard time, but now I like her particularly for that. Everyone else(especially season 1-3) was terrified of Picard. It's nice to see Pulaski stand up to him. But yeah, Bev's awesome

 

[timtonruben359]

Sorry for reviving such an old thread, but I just finished re-watching Voyager on Netflix and wanted to make some comments on the whole "who should they have written out to make for 7 of 9" debate.

As others have stated, Garrett Wang was the one originally opted to be axed from the show after he started giving the producers problems. Allegedly, Wang allowed the recognition brought on by Voyager to go to his head a bit. Gossip was he was sometimes late for call time and wouldn't know his lines. Some of the cast have admitted that before Jennifer Lien was let go they would frequently make jokes like "what are you going to do, fire me?" My guess has always been the reason Harry was injured in Scorpion Part 1 was to set up his departure from the series by death or that the infusion of DNA from 8472 resulted in an evolution similar to Kes'. As others have stated, what saved Wang's butt was the fact he was named one of People magazine's 100 beautiful people in 1997 and UPN didn't want to lose free publicity for Voyager which by this time was struggling in the ratings.

As a result of this, as we now know Lien was fired and written out of the show. Side note, according to Bryan Fuller in an interview with Star Trek Magazine, the original plan was that Kes would remain on the show for the first four or five episodes of the season so that her evolution would have unfolded over the course of several episodes. That plan changed when Lien (no longer on contract) agreed to only two episodes.

Overall Kes and Kim were both underdeveloped characters, however having watched the show for the first time in over a decade, Kes' potential was far more interesting than Kim's and her interactions with the Doctor, and to a lesser extent with Janeway, were a vital part of the earlier years of Voyagers. It's interesting that when Kes is written out, 7 of 9 takes on the "strong ally" to the Doctor role that Kes had occupied in the early seasons. Another interesting note, The episode Year of Hell was originally written as the season 3 finale but when they wrote Scorpion instead, the saved Year of Hell for Season 4. As a result of the cast change, much of Kes' part in that episode was simply given to 7. I also think it would have been neat to see what the interaction between Kes and 7 would have been, and where Kes' mental abilities would have gone.

However, the reality is after 7 joined the show, the writing shifted directions and largely focused on Janeway/7/Doctor while the rest of the cast struggled for meaningful storylines. Had Kes remained, it's likely she would have been shuffled further into the background.

 

[TigerCat]

Creatively I did always think it was a mistake, Kes had much more to offer as a character than Harry

I have to agree, especially since Seven's job was practically half of Harry's (or so it feels like to me), whereas the Doctor remained without an assistant. Keeping Kes and either developing her into a full time doctor or nurse makes more sense to me than keeping Harry on the bridge yet have Seven do his job for him.

For that matter, if all ended up being about firing one actor to use his/her salary to hire someone else, couldn't they offer a pay cut to two actors and still hire a third one with the saved money?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Contracts.

Wang was often late, unprepared, drunk, and trailing floozies leaking body glitter.

Contract said he could be fired without consequences, if he's a dick.

Did Jennifer get a big pay out when they fired her for no reason?

 

[STEPhon IT]

I have to agree, especially since Seven's job was practically half of Harry's (or so it feels like to me), whereas the Doctor remained without an assistant. Keeping Kes and either developing her into a full time doctor or nurse makes more sense to me than keeping Harry on the bridge yet have Seven do his job for him.

For that matter, if all ended up being about firing one actor to use his/her salary to hire someone else, couldn't they offer a pay cut to two actors and still hire a third one with the saved money?

I disagree, Kim had as much potential to give as with Kes, but it was the writers who betrayed his wonderful character. Who doesn't like a fish out of water who has all of these hopeful, and optimistic dreams on being on board a Starship, and all of them were shattered being lost is space? That's a character I would have a lot of interesting material to go on instead of doing completely nothing with his character. Kim should've been the character we all should root for because something has to be done to restore his faith in the Starfleet principles. What we got... was useless to the actor Garrett Wang; another actor who tried to give everything he had to expand his character when given the chance... which was not much when we had the grand-momma show hog Janeway dominating in every scene which normally amounted to nothing in substance. What a waist?

 

[TigerCat]

I disagree, Kim had as much potential to give as with Kes, but it was the writers who betrayed his wonderful character. Who doesn't like a fish out of water who has all of these hopeful, and optimistic dreams on being on board a Starship, and all of them were shattered being lost is space? That's a character I would have a lot of interesting material to go on instead of doing completely nothing with his character. Kim should've been the character we all should root for because something has to be done to restore his faith in the Starfleet principles. What we got... was useless to the actor Garrett Wang; another actor who tried to give everything he had to expand his character when given the chance... which was not much when we had the grand-momma show hog Janeway dominating in every scene which normally amounted to nothing in substance. What a waist?

I meant work-wise. Kes' position was gone with her gone but Kim's position was mostly taken over by Seven. She was created to cover the void his departure would create but he never left so she simply took over his work. Kes did leave and her departure created a void no one filled.
As far as characters go, I like both Kes and Harry and wish they were both still on the ship, but as far as positions go, I stand by my statement.

You're right, Harry should have been the green, baby officer that grew into a mature, hardened in battle officer. Kes should have been a character we saw throughout her life and all the changes a brand new species would mean. I can't pick one or the other and I don't want to, not as characters.

As for Janeway being a "grand-momma show-hog", I fully disagree.

 

[Farscape One]

I wonder if anyone posed this question... what if they got rid of BOTH Kim and Kes?

It is possible we would have gotten one or two recurring characters due to this.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Didn't they get rid of Kim (in spirit?)

The episodes list of Voyager has a column for "featured character".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek:_Voyager_episodes

In season 4, Harry Kim was the featured character in zero episodes.

In season 5, Harry Kim was the featured character in two episodes.

In season 6, Harry Kim was the featured character in one episode.

In season 7, Harry Kim was the featured character in one episode.

So that's four featured episodes, in four years.

In the first three years they gave him 5 featured episodes.

9 episodes out of 172?

Glorified wallpaper.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I wonder if anyone posed this question... what if they got rid of BOTH Kim and Kes?

It is possible we would have gotten one or two recurring characters due to this.

Promote Ayala to Ops Manager (all he can say is "Aye sir" anyway) and have Ensign Wildman become the new medical assistant.

 

[Guy Gardener]

And when the Doctor asks this four year old to replicate you some spermicidal jelly?

"MMMM! Jelly!"

 

[Sakonna]

For that matter, if all ended up being about firing one actor to use his/her salary to hire someone else, couldn't they offer a pay cut to two actors and still hire a third one with the saved money?

It was always a bit of a BS excuse from the production -- if they valued all their characters and the actors playing them, it's not that hard to find the money to keep them. And I would be shocked if Lien and Wang weren't the two lowest paid cast, so it's not like they saved a fortune.

But the money for another castmember has to come from somewhere in the budget, and why go looking for creative solutions when you have some problem actors you'd be glad to be rid of? And a cast where a lot of the members brought a poor work ethic or bad attitude. You can't fire everybody, so put the fear of god in the ones that remain.

Did Jennifer get a big pay out when they fired her for no reason?

No, they just would not have picked up her option for that season. These contracts are very one-way -- there are regular intervals where the production can release the actor without penalty. You can negotiate it different ways, but usually (esp back then) you can drop any series regulars after episode 13 of season 1 and at the end of each season.

I wonder if anyone posed this question... what if they got rid of BOTH Kim and Kes?

Heh! Good thinking. I would have liked to keep Kes, but if she had to go, I definitely wanted Kim to go with her. It's interesting how inept the Trek casting people were at this particular type -- hot young non-white guys. Kim and Mayweather over on ENT, eesh, two of the worst actors in the entire franchise.

 

[Farscape One]

If memory serves me, typical lead actor contracts for STAR TREK series from TNG onward were 6 year contracts, and negotiations to have a 7th if the series gets the green light. It wasn't that Lien wasn't offered an extension past season 3, it was that she was released from her contract after season 3 finished production. The result is the same, but I think it paints a slighter different picture with that fact.

 

[STEPhon IT]

If memory serves me, typical lead actor contracts for STAR TREK series from TNG onward were 6 year contracts, and negotiations to have a 7th if the series gets the green light. It wasn't that Lien wasn't offered an extension past season 3, it was that she was released from her contract after season 3 finished production. The result is the same, but I think it paints a slighter different picture with that fact.

Lynx would have more info on this, and I hope he comes by to answer my question. Was Lien released because of the lack of new audience members, word of mouth in popularity, or was she difficult to work with? TBH these accusations in this thread about Wang's behavior and Lien's appear to be retroactive thinking based on what they're going through in recent times. I have never heard of these actors having a bad behavior on set, ON SET, I understand Robert Beltran had some episodes during crew readings along with the writers but never acted like a school yard bully while working on stage.

 

[Lynx]

Lynx would have more info on this, and I hope he comes by to answer my question. Was Lien released because of the lack of new audience members, word of mouth in popularity, or was she difficult to work with? TBH these accusations in this thread about Wang's behavior and Lien's appear to be retroactive thinking based on what they're going through in recent times. I have never heard of these actors having a bad behavior on set, ON SET, I understand Robert Beltran had some episodes during crew readings along with the writers but never acted like a school yard bully while working on stage.

During all those years, I've never heard, seen or read something about Jennifer Lien being difficult to work with and/or disliked by the other cast members. All of them have only had good words to say about her.

Kes wasn't hated or disliked by the fans. During the first three seasons of Voyager, Kes wasn't the most popular character but not the most disliked either. The most disliked character was without doubt Neelix who got a lot of bad comments from fans on different forums (not me, I liked and still like him). Janeway was a character which many fans liked but there were also a lot of fans who didn't like her. Kim got some criitic for being a weak character. Kes was hardly mentioned back then.

Kes was dumped because those in charge wanted to attract young male viewers by adding a "sexy babe" to the show.

Kim was about to be dumped but when a silly inside poll in a glossy magazine showed Garret Wang as one of the "50 most handsome", they changed their minds and dumped Kes instead.

To be honest. back then I saw no comments about Wang being difficult to work with. However I must point out here that the infamous "drug rumor" actually started about Wang but "spilled over" to Lien when she was dumped. But that rumor has never been confirmed in any way!

If there had been any problems with Lien and Wang, it would have been out a long time ago.

I mean, everyone knew that Shannen Doherty was a pain in the a** in "Beverly Hills" and was dumped because of that. Everyone knows why Gary Dourdan was dumped from CSI and the problems with Charlie Sheen were well-known before he was kicked out from "Two And A half Men". But nothing have ever been confirmed about Lien or Wang.

The interesting thing here is how those in charge acted after "the seasons in season 4".

First they stated that "Lien had left of her own free will".

When people obviously didn't buy that explanation, they came up with all that crap about Kes "being difficult to write for" and "we ran out of ideas for the character" which seems a bit hollow considering the fact that they did come up with good Kes stories up to the last episodes of season 3 and one of the writers came up with a good story in a book after Kes was dumped. Imteresting that the whole writing staff all of a sudden lost the ability to write for the character.

Not to mention those comments about "mutual agreement" which I've learned means foul play.

As for the contract things, a lot of people I've debated with have stated that the cast members had a three year-contract and after season 3, all contracts were re-newed except Lien's. But I don't know if that's the truth or how each and every contract for the cast members looked like.

Personally I see Lien's departure as a firing because if you have a bunch of people hired and everyone except one is re-hired after a certain period, then at least I would consider the unlucky one who didn't "get the contract re-newed" as actually fired, no matter what semantics are used to sugar-coat the action.

 

[timtonruben359]

Kes wasn't hated or disliked by the fans. During the first three seasons of Voyager, Kes wasn't the most popular character but not the most disliked either. The most disliked character was without doubt Neelix who got a lot of bad comments from fans on different forums (not me, I liked and still like him). Janeway was a character which many fans liked but there were also a lot of fans who didn't like her. Kim got some criitic for being a weak character. Kes was hardly mentioned back then.

To be totally honest if I were making the decision of which main character to cut in order to make room for 7 of 9, I would have picked Neelix. The writers never really gave his character a defined purpose on the show. In the first three seasons, they really tried to find a path for the character. First he was a guide, then cook, then ambassador, then it looked he was eventually going to become a security officer, but after 7 joined the show, they really dropped the character. Clearly he was created to be a form of comic relief but he was more annoying than funny if I'm being honest.

To be honest. back then I saw no comments about Wang being difficult to work with. However I must point out here that the infamous "drug rumor" actually started about Wang but "spilled over" to Lien when she was dumped. But that rumor has never been confirmed in any way!

If there had been any problems with Lien and Wang, it would have been out a long time ago.

I can't remember if it was public knowledge at the time, but it's now known that Wang was suspended from the show for two episodes during season three, specifically "Fair Trade" and "Blood Fever." Also Berman and Wang couldn't stand each other and Berman refused to allow Wang to direct an episode of Voyager. This is telling because Berman basically gave any actor on TNG, DS9 or VOY the opportunity to direct if they asked.

I agree with you regarding the odd messaging given by producers around the departure of Jennifer Lien. It's clear that the writers were prepping the Kes character for some major story lines in season 4 particularly surrounding the Year of Hell. They weren't running out of ideas nor did Lien want to leave. Also it's very well know that Kate Mulgrew was livid about Lien's departure which again underlines the fact that Lien's departure was not of her own doing. Indeed, Mulgrew never really got over Lien being written off the show and I think that's part of where her animosity towards Jeri Ryan stemmed from (among many other things). Finally, there's a marked difference in Lien's acting between Scorpion Part 1 the first two episodes of Season 4. Her performance is much more low key in her final two episodes which seems to suggest she's upset by what has happened.

Another thing I want to say about the Kes vs Kim debate, I always felt Kes had really good character episodes like "Cold Fire," "Warlord" and "Before and After" which not only showed the potential of the character, but Lien's strong acting abilities. Sorry but Lien was a far better performer than Wang.

 

[chris of nine]

Warlord, I’m all in. More, please.

Just like Body and Soul, I love it when a girl plays a male character.

Lien rocked it in Warlord.

Wang came close in Nightingale, to transitioning up a tier.
And Timeless was pretty great.

But all the girls beat him out.