Get Bent - Star Fleet Flag Officer: A Discussion

[M.A.C.O.]

Wasn't Admiral Kirk (along with his crew) charged with nine violations of Starfleet Regulations

More like 6.

1.Conspiracy - To commit the below offenses
2.Theft of Star Fleet property - USS Enterprise
3. Destruction of Star Fleet property - USS Enterprise
4. Assault of Federation officials - Breaking McCoy out of jail.
5. Sabotage of USS Excelsior
6. Disobeying direct orders of Star Fleet commander. By going to the quarantined Genesis planet.

The judge mentioned there were mitigating factors to be considered however. And dropped all charges except number 6.

The mitigating factors were more than likely:
1. The extreme situation of McCoy with Spock's Katra.
2. Star Fleet Command admitting they don't know much about Vulcan mysticism and can be pretty slow to react. See the Amok Time and how long it took Star Fleet to approve Kirk's request to go to Vulcan.
3. Spock's immortal soul needing to be restored to a key Federation world. Something Ambassador Sarek likely lobbied Star Fleet for on behalf of himself and Vulcan.
4.The USS Enterprise being destined for the scrap heap anyway.
5. No real damage to the new ship Excelsior.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Fleet admiral Shanthi from Redemption was fine. Even though all we saw of Commodore Mendez in TOS was a simulation, there's no reason to assume that he was crooked. Commodore Stone was okay, too.

Commodore Stone offered to sweep a murder under the rug to protect the fleet's reputation.

 

[MacLeod]

More like 6.

1.Conspiracy - To commit the below offenses
2.Theft of Star Fleet property - USS Enterprise
3. Destruction of Star Fleet property - USS Enterprise
4. Assault of Federation officials - Breaking McCoy out of jail.
5. Sabotage of USS Excelsior
6. Disobeying direct orders of Star Fleet commander. By going to the quarantined Genesis planet.

Well the assault on Federation Officers could be expanded to separate counts the security guards and Mister Adventure.

And if you want violating Direct Orders there are at least two the other being ordered to surrender the Enterprise.

 

[Tenacity]

Mister Adventure

Unlawful imprisonment.

 

[J.T.B.]

Commodore Stone offered to sweep a murder under the rug to protect the fleet's reputation.

Agreed he was ready to sweep something under the rug, but I wouldn't assume that he thought Kirk had intentionally killed Finney. The charge he brought was negligence.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Agreed he was ready to sweep something under the rug, but I wouldn't assume that he thought Kirk had intentionally killed Finney. The charge he brought was negligence.

KIRK: Finney knew he had a matter of seconds. I gave him those seconds and more. But apparently it wasn't enough.
STONE: Then why, Captain, does the computer log from your ship, made automatically at the time, indicate that you were still on Yellow Alert when you jettisoned and not on Red?
KIRK: I don't know. There's been a mistake.
STONE: It would seem so. Could the computer be wrong?
KIRK: Mister Spock is running a survey right now, but the odds are next to impossible.
STONE: Stop recording. Now, look, Jim. Not one man in a million could do what you and I have done. Command a starship. A hundred decisions a day, hundreds of lives staked on you making every one of them right. You're played out, Jim. Exhausted.
KIRK: Is that the way you see it?
STONE: That's the way my report'll read if you co-operate.
KIRK: A physical breakdown. Possibly even mental collapse.
STONE: Possibly.
KIRK: I'd be admitting a man died because
STONE: Admit nothing. Say nothing. Let me bury the matter here and now. No starship captain has ever stood trial before, and I don't want you to be the first.
KIRK: But if what you suspect is true, then I'm guilty. I should be punished.
STONE: I'm thinking of the service. I won't have it smeared.
KIRK: By what, Commodore Stone?
STONE: All right. By an evident perjurer who's either covering his bad judgment, his cowardice, or -
KIRK: That's as far as you go, sir. I'm telling you I was there on the Bridge. I know what happened. I know what I did.
STONE: It's in the transcript, and computer transcripts don't lie. I'm telling you, Captain, either you accept a permanent ground assignment, or the whole disciplinary weight of Starfleet command is going to light right on your neck.
KIRK: So that's the way we do it now? Sweep it under the rug, and me along with it? Not on your life. I intend to fight.
STONE: Then you draw a general court.
KIRK: Draw it? I demand it. And right now, Commodore Stone. Right now.

Stone clearly leaves open the possibility that it was deliberate, and is still willing to make it go away 'for the good of the service'. And he clearly is writing a narrative of 'mental collapse' not on the basis of any facts but on the basis of what he prefers to have happen.

Also, even if it is 'negligence' or 'mental collapse', it's still corruption to try to hide that rather than see justice done according to the appropriate laws and regulations.

 

[J.T.B.]

Stone clearly leaves open the possibility that it was deliberate, and is still willing to make it go away 'for the good of the service'. And he clearly is writing a narrative of 'mental collapse' not on the basis of any facts but on the basis of what he prefers to have happen.

That's one way of interpreting it, but it's not clear because he never says it. If he thought it was a murder, why didn't he charge it as a murder? But there are a lot of inconsistencies in the episode. Shaw's questioning of McCoy is one example. Why does she ask about Kirk hating Finney, what does that have to do with negligence? Why do they ask about how Finney was chosen for the pod duty when they have video evidence of Spock saying he was at the top of the duty list?

Also, even if it is 'negligence' or 'mental collapse', it's still corruption to try to hide that rather than see justice done according to the appropriate laws and regulations.

I agree it's corrupt. But covering up a murder would be a whole different level of corruption. If the authorial or editorial intent of the episode was that Stone wanted to help Kirk get away with murder, it didn't come across very strongly.

 

[Tenacity]

Commodore Stone offered to sweep a murder under the rug to protect the fleet's reputation.

He offered Kirk the equivalent of a plea bargain, officially Kirk is transferred to a staff position somewhere, in time he gets to retire with full benefits.

Finney's death is determined to be a operational accident.

Starfleet purposes are serve by not letting it be generally known that some of their commanders aren't highly competent.

A military's reputation assists in it ability to dissuade potential adversaries from confrontations. Kirk quietly disappearing makes it slightly less likely that the Klingons (or others) push a little harder against the borders.

Ultimate winners? The civilian population and the peaceful live they enjoy.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

He offered Kirk the equivalent of a plea bargain, officially Kirk is transferred to a staff position somewhere, in time he gets to retire with full benefits.

Finney's death is determined to be a operational accident.

Starfleet purposes are serve by not letting it be generally known that some of their commanders aren't highly competent.

A military's reputation assists in it ability to dissuade potential adversaries from confrontations. Kirk quietly disappearing makes it slightly less likely that the Klingons (or others) push a little harder against the borders.

Ultimate winners? The civilian population and the peaceful live they enjoy.

That's a long winded way of saying justice doesn't matter and corruption in Starfleet is no big deal.

Also, it's not a plea bargain when no one admits any kind of guilt. It's just a conspiracy to conceal wrongdoing.

 

[Timo]

The system of punishments and rewards within Starfleet is not obligated to serve the purposes of general justice, any more than the service is obligated to cater for somebody else's definitions of right and wrong in its general actions (such as killing).

Sometimes, military rules and civilian law strive for a great degree of commonality, in philosophies if not in the details of practices. In TOS, the division is especially pronounced, though: civilian wrongdoers avoid punishment altogether, as they are considered mentally ill and apparently by default unaccountable and subsequently just get the appropriate cure, while military wrongdoers are held accountable for their deeds and receive punitive action.

Had Kirk been declared guilty of wanton murder, what would have happened? By precedent, he should have been eligible for service in every practical respect after X months in psychotherapy, unless declared fit for Elba II instead. Would the harsher type of justice practiced in Starfleet have precluded continuing service, though? This episode certainly suggests so. So the standards of justice are very different to begin with.

Whether Stone was corrupt then depends on our understanding and valuating of the two different systems. From the modern civilian viewpoint, Stone would seem to be erring on the side of cruelty whichever way he acts. By asking Kirk to skip a trial he apparently is entitled to (even without adding to his charges by yelling at his boss), and protecting the reputation of the service, is he truly subverting a system, or just navigating the stormy seas of a system in transition?

Agreed that Stone doesn't seem to much believe that Finney's death could have been malicious; in his truncated list of accusations, he's just getting provoked when Kirk turns down his generosity. But that mutual provocation could hide the specifics of the case and its true career and life implications.

...Which isn't all that interesting in the dramatic sense, as the intended setup is clear enough. The in-universe implications are the part where questions can be raised.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gabriel]

Ah, the top brass of Star Fleet. To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, 'You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

How many crooked admirals are there in Star Fleet?

TOS:
Decker - Doomsday Machine
Cartwright - The Voyage Home, The Undiscovered Country

TNG:
Jameson - Too Short A Season
Haftel - The Offspring
Satie - Drumhead
Kennelly - Ensign Ro
Pressman - Pegasus
Doughtery - Insurrection

DS9:
Leyton - Homefront, Paradise Lost
Ross - The Dominion War arc, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges

VOY:
Future Janeway - Endgame

Kelvinverse:
Marcus

So many flag officers who break the rules. Sure, captains bend the rules, but the aforementioned flag officers take a lot of liberties they know they shouldn't.

Assassinations, conspiracies, forbidden experiments in violation of treaties,government coup d'etats, prime directive violations, temporal prime directive violations, weapons/arms deals, mass murder, sanctioning Section 31 operations, collaborating with foreign actors for personal gain.

So many bad apples. What do you think is the cause?


Positive Flag examples
ENT:
Forrest - Recurring throughout ENT

TOS:
Kirk - TMP, TWOK, TSFS, TVH

TNG - DS9:
Hanson - Best of Both World
Henry - Drumhead
Nechayev (Yeah, yeah. She's rigged and approachable as a porcupine, but she's isn't crooked.)

VOY:
Paris - Recurring

Kelvinverse:
Pike - STID
Paris - Beyond

Well for me I don’t think we should count Decker and Ross. I don’t believe Decker broke any rules. He was just trying to avenge his fallen comrades. And for Ross, remember it was war. During war time you some times have to bend the rules.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Well for me I don’t think we should count Decker and Ross. I don’t believe Decker broke any rules. He was just trying to avenge his fallen comrades. And for Ross, remember it was war. During war time you some times have to bend the rules.

Decker should've been smart enough to know fighting the Doomsday Weapon with another constitution class, after his was lost in a fire fight. Was a bad idea. Granted, he was impaired by grief. His battle strategy and ability to remember regulations and maneuvers does bring into question how far gone he was.

With Ross, he can't be excused. Recall, Star Fleet Medical and Section 31 infected Odo back in season 4. Before there was any declaration of war and things hadn't spilled out into full scale invasion from the Gamma quadrant.The Dominion drew first blood when they destroyed the Odyssey. But Star Fleet was intending to fight dirty from the start.

 

[The Wormhole]

With Ross, he can't be excused. Recall, Star Fleet Medical and Section 31 infected Odo back in season 4. Before there was any declaration of war and things hadn't spilled out into full scale invasion from the Gamma quadrant.The Dominion drew first blood when they destroyed the Odyssey. But Star Fleet was intending to fight dirty from the start.

Ross himself wasn't involved with the plan to infect Odo. Indeed, he didn't become involved with Section 31 until after the war started, and even then, I doubt he's aware of the full extent of their actions.

 

[Gabriel]

Decker should've been smart enough to know fighting the Doomsday Weapon with another constitution class, after his was lost in a fire fight. Was a bad idea. Granted, he was impaired by grief. His battle strategy and ability to remember regulations and maneuvers does bring into question how far gone he was.

With Ross, he can't be excused. Recall, Star Fleet Medical and Section 31 infected Odo back in season 4. Before there was any declaration of war and things hadn't spilled out into full scale invasion from the Gamma quadrant.The Dominion drew first blood when they destroyed the Odyssey. But Star Fleet was intending to fight dirty from the start.

Well it’s the same thing about Sisko bringing the Romulans into the war by lying. Both Cisco and apple Ross or Starfleet officers there first duty is to protect federation lives. The dominion was a threat from the very beginning. Now while no doubt that there tactics are questionable, they need to protect the Federation.

 

[Gabriel]

Sorry about the typos “sisko” “admiral rose”

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Ross himself wasn't involved with the plan to infect Odo. Indeed, he didn't become involved with Section 31 until after the war started, and even then, I doubt he's aware of the full extent of their actions.

Well it’s the same thing about Sisko bringing the Romulans into the war by lying. Both Cisco and apple Ross or Starfleet officers there first duty is to protect federation lives. The dominion was a threat from the very beginning. Now while no doubt that there tactics are questionable, they need to protect the Federation.

The point is that Ross and others in Star Fleet Command (the admiralty) were in bed with Section 31 and collaborated with them on projects. Ross knew of Sloan activities to carry out assassinations on Romulus and frame an innocent woman for the crime of espionage against her own government. In Section 31's debut episode, when Sisko asked Star Fleet Command about Section 31. They told him they could neither confirm or deny such an agency exists.

Back to Odo and the Changeling virus, someone had to give the order to Star Fleet Medical to infect Odo. For the express purpose of using him as a carrier. Hell, it could've been Admiral Leyton himself who gave the order. Section 31 and Star Fleet Command were intent to maintain the conspiracy even after Bashir discovered the cure.

 

[The Wormhole]

Ross knew of Sloan activities to carry out assassinations on Romulus and frame an innocent woman for the crime of espionage against her own government.

Creetak wasn't actually framed, she really did commit espionage against her own government. Ross and Sloan manipulated her and Bashir into doing the act. Which is still horrible, but not actually framing anyone.

Back to Odo and the Changeling virus, someone had to give the order to Star Fleet Medical to infect Odo.

You assume Starfleet Medical as an organization was involved with infecting Odo. Most likely the particular doctor conducting the tests on Odo was the one to infect him, as he or she was either a member of Section 31 or at least under their influence.

Hell, it could've been Admiral Leyton himself who gave the order.

I think if Admiral Leyton were in bed with Section 31 the coup would likely have succeeded. At the very least, when Sisko was implicated as being a Changeling in the President's office, I think Section 31 would have come up with a more permanent solution to getting Sisko out of the way then having him sent to Starfleet Command's brig waiting Odo to rescue him.

Besides, if Section 31 wanted Jaresh-Inyo out of the way, they would be more likely to remove him themselves and arrange an actual politician to take office, one who either has the necessary mentality to carry out what they feel needs doing, or one who was under their control (Bashir did say they had sever agents among the Federation Cabinet). They would not allow a Starfleet Admiral to oust the President and take control of the Federation Government. Section 31 view themselves as the guardians of peace and democracy who are willing to dirty their hands so that others can live in a blissful delusion of paradise. They're not going to allow a military dictator to take over the Federation.

 

[Gabriel]

The point is that Ross and others in Star Fleet Command (the admiralty) were in bed with Section 31 and collaborated with them on projects. Ross knew of Sloan activities to carry out assassinations on Romulus and frame an innocent woman for the crime of espionage against her own government. In Section 31's debut episode, when Sisko asked Star Fleet Command about Section 31. They told him they could neither confirm or deny such an agency exists.

Back to Odo and the Changeling virus, someone had to give the order to Star Fleet Medical to infect Odo. For the express purpose of using him as a carrier. Hell, it could've been Admiral Leyton himself who gave the order. Section 31 and Star Fleet Command were intent to maintain the conspiracy even after Bashir discovered the cure.

just because they are inked with section 31 does not make them bad people. remember its war and while it is best to try and keep your morals, but at the end of the day you can't keep your head high because you kept to your morals if your dead.

 

[Gabriel]

sorry in bed