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Germany to abandon nuclear power by 2022

Thanks for the info. I imagine hydroelectric is one of the greenest forms of energy production, if a nation has the landscape for it. Water is destined to flow downhill eventually anyway, you just make it do work along the way. :bolian:

And I got it a bit wrong about Russia ~ this year they're short of gasoline, not gas.
 
Thanks for the info. I imagine hydroelectric is one of the greenest forms of energy production, if a nation has the landscape for it. Water is destined to flow downhill eventually anyway, you just make it do work along the way. :bolian:

Yeah, just look at China, how great it is.
 
Thanks for the info. I imagine hydroelectric is one of the greenest forms of energy production, if a nation has the landscape for it. Water is destined to flow downhill eventually anyway, you just make it do work along the way. :bolian:

And I got it a bit wrong about Russia ~ this year they're short of gasoline, not gas.

Yes, Austria's topography is uniquely suited for hydo electric - not many nations with a similar population and with similar electrical consumption are as fortunate.
 
I wonder how Norway does it. Either the country is a lot more mountaineous than I thought or they've developed a scheme that works in flat countries, too.
 
I wonder how Norway does it. Either the country is a lot more mountaineous than I thought or they've developed a scheme that works in flat countries, too.

Norway outside of Oslo IS just Mountains... and really nice fjords.... :techman:

Ja, vi elsker dette landet
som det stiger frem,
furet, værbitt, over vannet,
med du tusen hjem.
Elsker, elsker det og tenker
på vå far og mor
og den saganatt som senker
drømme på vår jord.
og den saganatt som senker
drømme på vår jord.

(Tis my homeland (norway)...well, came over in 1904 but the blood still flows...)
 
I wonder how Norway does it. Either the country is a lot more mountaineous than I thought or they've developed a scheme that works in flat countries, too.

What's interesting to me as an American is the highlighted portion below which is electrical production is at its lowest level in the summer.

The opposite is true here. Air conditioning I know is much less prevalent in Europe as it is in the United States so the opposite is true here. Electrical consumption is at its peak here because virtually every building and private home has an air conditioning unit and/or central air.

Shit - have you ever been to Washington D.C.? Not only do the air condition the trains they also air condition the out-door platforms while people wait to board the trains.

As you ride an escalator down to a metro station in Washington in the summer it's like being indoors.



Norway electric grid
Hydropower generation can vary substantially from one year to another, depending on precipitation and inflow. Precipitation levels vary between regions, between seasons and between years. Inflow is high during the spring thaw, but normally decreases during summer and towards autumn. Autumn floods generally result in an increase before the onset of winter, when inflow is normally very low. The spring flood comes later in inland regions and in the mountains than near the coast and in lowland areas. Precipitation varies substantially from year to year and is more than twice as high in the wettest years as in the driest ones.
Many power plants can store water in reservoirs and are referred to as reservoir power plants. The reservoirs allow water to be retained in flood periods and released in drought periods, typically in the winter. Water is collected in the reservoirs when inflow is high and consumption low. Normally, water will be drawn off during autumn and winter, when electricity demand is highest. In spring and summer electricity demand reaches its lowest level, and the reservoirs refill. At the start of 2006, total energy capability of Norway's reservoirs was about 84.3 TWh, which is equivalent to around two-thirds of the annual electricity consumption.
 
One thing to remember is that Hydro power actually has major environmental issues, and in many places they are being phased out due to this.

though one day I do want to see the Qattara Depression hydro system in operation.
 
I agree with you generally about nuclear power. Part of the problem [the dangers aside] is that many of the costs are hidden. In a KWH analysis often excluded are such additional costs for the plants e.g. the liability insurance, the cost to dispose of the fuel, and generally the enormous costs to build the plants to begin with - often heavily subsidized [comparatively to other types of electrical production] by the government.

That's a misleading statement at best. Nuclear plants, at least in the US, are required to collect a fund (usually through a surcharge on customers) to pay for decommissioning. As for waste, the plants pay for short term storage. Long term storage was supposed to be taken by the federal government and buried in Nevada. Since that hasn't happened, the fed's instead pay the plants for long term on-site storage.

On-site long term storage is in the form of what's called a dry cask, a train car sized, explosion-proof, concrete drum with several tons of wasted stored inside. Such casks do not need cooling and because they're essentially giant chunks of concrete will last for centuries in their current condition, which is generally in a secured lot sitting in the sun just outside of the containment building. Yep. Just sitting in the sun. It doesn't need any more than that.

Time may prove ideas like coring out mountains and shipping waste to such places as not only unnecessary, but far riskier than leaving it in casks. Either way, despite popular perception, nuclear waste, unlike every other source of pollution on the planet, is already fully managed. There are no externalities, no victims being slowly poisoned by gases. No unknowns, the entire cost of the operation is known. It is far ahead of carbon emitting fossil fuels.

As for capital expenditures, if you're going to build a 2 gigawatt plant, it's going to cost billions of dollars no matter what type of energy it's going to run on. In fact, that's the main reason why renewables haven't had a wider adoption: deploying them on an industrial scale is enormously expensive, because they have the exact same problem as nukes. They're a huge capital expense, with a low operating costs and a 20 year payback period. Right now, a solar power plant with an output equal to a nuclear reactor will cost far more than the reactor, even with fuel and waste costs included. Wind power costs slightly more to install than a reactor. On top of that, the renewable sources take up a lot more land than a nuclear plant.

Having said that, we really need to fund both and use natural gas to fill the short-to-mid-term shortfall. No energy source is perfect, pretending that you should go with one instead of the other is a false dilemma. You have to make a cost-benefit analysis everytime you need to build another power plant, and based on that decide which source to use it.

Germany is a net exporter of electric power, and the nuclear power plants are hardly ever producing their maximum output. On days with lots of wind/sun, there aren't even needed today. So, this shouldn't be much of a problem, despite what the lobbyists say.

Uranium ore is getting expensive. At one time it was dirt cheap, but the price of it has increased tenfold over the past decade, spiking in 2007. It has dropped a little recently due to the Fukushima incident. When you consider that a nuclear plant has to operate for 25 years to pay for itself, you need the price of the fuel to be relatively stable, otherwise it'll bankrupt you.

A whole lot of bad facts here. First, uranium prices plummeted when the rest of the commodity bubble popped in 2008. Second, even if uranium climbs back to the previous, unsustainable levels, it really doesn't matter much. Fuel costs are a fraction of the cost of running a nuclear power plant. A 10-fold increase in fuel costs will only increase the cost of operations by ~20%. Compare that with coal, where a 10-fold increase in fuel will increase costs by roughly 800%.

The reason why is simple: you just don't need that much fuel to operate a reactor. It's a couple hundred tons, replaced every other year or so. A coal plant will burn through hundreds of tons a day. Hell, they only pull 40,000 tons of uranium out of the ground in a whole year, which is roughly what a large coal plant will burn in a single hot summer. If it ever does get too expensive? Just build a plant to process thorium, which is even more plentiful than the already fairly abundant uranium. Existing reactors don't need much in the way of alterations to use thorium.

Sidenote on thorium: despite some articles some of you may have read, thorium isn't inherently safer or cleaner than uranium. Think of them as largely interchangeable.
 

No natural ressources and a strategic need for energetic independance.


^I saw a big yellow banner with a skull and thought;
'they must love skulls over there.' :lol:


Yes, of course, that's what any sane person would think...
I thought the protest was dull and rather uninspiring -
Yellow/black/radition signs/a skull, a picture of Mr. Burns and Angelar Merkel was the high light!
 
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