Geothermal Water Heating

[All Seeing Eye]

If Geothermal heating of water is as simple as sending piped water deep underground and then back up why doesn't every home have a Geothermal system? or better yet a geosolar system which combines the benefits of both Geothermal and Solar power?

If it's that easy to do why are we still burning fossil fuels to heat our water?

 

[sojourner]

The obvious answer? It must not be that easy to do.

 

[Silvercrest]

If Geothermal heating of water is as simple as sending piped water deep underground and then back up why doesn't every home have a Geothermal system? or better yet a geosolar system which combines the benefits of both Geothermal and Solar power?

If it's that easy to do why are we still burning fossil fuels to heat our water?

The obvious answer? It must not be that easy to do.

Logic 101 is now in session.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

The obvious answer? It must not be that easy to do.

But it is that easy. Have you studied the Ground Source Heat Pumps that you can currently buy? If you've got the money and the space you can have one fitted.
It's as straightforward as purchasing one and having it fitted. How much more easy does it need to be? and if these things were built at the same time as the house is being built then it all works out easier to fit.
So the water is heated naturally and the pump used can be solar powered.

This technology though could easily be expanded on, if they started to bury these pipes vertically and deeper than they normally do the water would become even hotter.

 

[Snaploud]

Some possibilities:

--installation costs: they're higher than for a conventional system, and most people don't want to bother with the expense of switching systems

--public's lack of experience with these systems: sure, they say it will last 50 years, but it's a new technology (for most of us) and therefore suspect (especially when talking about a basic need like water)

--professional lack of experience with these systems: a professional is needed to install these systems, and the expertise in this area is (currently) limited (meaning it's going to be hard for the average potential customer to judge who is best to install such a system)

--local building ordinances: such a system may or may not be in violation of local zoning ordinances (it's certainly something that would take some time to look into)

--the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra: most people just won't bother looking into such a system when it would mean unnecessary construction

 

[All Seeing Eye]

If a government makes it mandatory that new build homes are built with these systems then eventually they'll be in wide spread use and also will open up new job opportunities for people to fit these systems.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

And no government in this day and age would make them mandatory because it would involve the invention and development of technologies we don't even have and it would immediately put all traditional construction firms out of business. Yeah, that's a great move.

 

[Silvercrest]

How much more easy does it need to be?

If you've got the money and the space you can have one fitted.

Perhaps it needs to be easier for those people who don't have the money and the space.

Have you done it yet? I'd say this is an important question, if you claim it's so easy.

 

[Marc]

Some possibilities:

--installation costs: they're higher than for a conventional system, and most people don't want to bother with the expense of switching systems

--public's lack of experience with these systems: sure, they say it will last 50 years, but it's a new technology (for most of us) and therefore suspect (especially when talking about a basic need like water)

--professional lack of experience with these systems: a professional is needed to install these systems, and the expertise in this area is (currently) limited (meaning it's going to be hard for the average potential customer to judge who is best to install such a system)

--local building ordinances: such a system may or may not be in violation of local zoning ordinances (it's certainly something that would take some time to look into)

--the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra: most people just won't bother looking into such a system when it would mean unnecessary construction

they are starting to be advertised on TV in Ontario but another factor is probably the land size (given the way in some places houses are on very small lots), there needs to be access to the backyard to put them in and finally you're gonna end up with your garden being dug up.

Probably would be worth considering with a new build though.

 

[farmkid]

The obvious answer? It must not be that easy to do.

But it is that easy. Have you studied the Ground Source Heat Pumps that you can currently buy? If you've got the money and the space you can have one fitted.
It's as straightforward as purchasing one and having it fitted. How much more easy does it need to be? and if these things were built at the same time as the house is being built then it all works out easier to fit.
So the water is heated naturally and the pump used can be solar powered.

This technology though could easily be expanded on, if they started to bury these pipes vertically and deeper than they normally do the water would become even hotter.

I think you're confusing a couple of different kinds of systems here. True geothermal systems, which use the heat of the earth to heat water are really only practical in areas where there is natural geothermal activity. Generally, unless there are hot springs or volcanoes nearby, this isn't for you. Most systems are geothermal heat pump systems. Heat pumps differ from air conditioners in that they can run in either direction depending on whether heating or cooling is needed. These work like your air conditioner, except they use the ground or groundwater as the heat sink or heat source instead of outside air. This makes them more efficient, but they still use energy.

The problem with converting to these systems is that it is expensive--they cost about twice what a conventional system costs--and they are not suitable for every home. You need access to land to bury the pipes. A typical home might need room for for a 1000 foot trench. Alternatively, a vertical pipe can be used, but that would require drilling a well several hundred feet deep. Many homes just don't have the space required for that. It doesn't make financial sense for many people, either. In my case, my rough calculations tell me that if I were to install such a system, it would take 20-25 years for the reduced utilities bills to pay for it. If I were building a new home, I might think about it, but it doesn't make sense to install such a system in my home as it is now.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Well as I've said myself in a previous post it makes sense to use the system on new build houses at the very least and whilst it will increase the price of the house and would take years to pay it off it would at least benefit any descendants whom you may leave the house to.

I currently rent property but saving for a deposit for a mortgage. It is my hope when I get my own house to implement such a system as this as well as other green systems so whilst it may take me a lifetime to see any benefit when I leave my house to my child they will benefit from it there entire lives.

 

[T'Girl]

If it's that easy to do why are we still burning fossil fuels to heat our water?

Because, hard as it might be to believe, fossil fuels are cheaper than the alternatives.

If a government makes it mandatory ..

With the market the way it is, you think it a good idea to increase the average cost of a house?

It is my hope when I get my own house to implement such a system as this as well as other green systems so whilst it may take me a lifetime to see any benefit when I leave my house to my child they will benefit from it there entire lives.

So you live in a area with geo-thermal activity?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

So you live in a area with geo-thermal activity?

Geo-thermal activity is all around us, go deep enough and it gets hot enough. A vertical hole with pipes going up and down can be done anywhere.

 

[farmkid]

So you live in a area with geo-thermal activity?

Geo-thermal activity is all around us, go deep enough and it gets hot enough. A vertical hole with pipes going up and down can be done anywhere.

If you're wanting true geothermal energy, and not just a heat pump system that uses the ground as a heat source/sink, then you will need to go very deep. Unless you live in an area with geothermal activity (and as UK resident, I doubt you do) you will need to go down several thousand feet.

 

[Silvercrest]

I'm starting to sense the presence of large thermal updrafts, if you know what I mean. Perhaps it would be more effective to harness those.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

So you live in a area with geo-thermal activity?

Geo-thermal activity is all around us, go deep enough and it gets hot enough. A vertical hole with pipes going up and down can be done anywhere.

If you're wanting true geothermal energy, and not just a heat pump system that uses the ground as a heat source/sink, then you will need to go very deep. Unless you live in an area with geothermal activity (and as UK resident, I doubt you do) you will need to go down several thousand feet.

Look, any form of heat generated from the ground is geothermal. Obviously there are different levels of Geothermal generated heat depending where you are and what (if any) activity is present, but the fact remains heated water can be obtained anywhere from the ground, even in the UK, and this will help this country (as it would many others) save on the amount of Gas required.

The UK relies on what they have left in the North sea gas fields, once that's gone we'll go from being partially dependant on foreign gas to being fully dependant. To try and limit the problems associated with that, new build homes could use these underground heat pumps.

 

[farmkid]

Look, any form of heat generated from the ground is geothermal. Obviously there are different levels of Geothermal generated heat depending where you are and what (if any) activity is present, but the fact remains heated water can be obtained anywhere from the ground, even in the UK, and this will help this country (as it would many others) save on the amount of Gas required.

The UK relies on what they have left in the North sea gas fields, once that's gone we'll go from being partially dependant on foreign gas to being fully dependant. To try and limit the problems associated with that, new build homes could use these underground heat pumps.

If you're using a heat pump, then you're not using geothermal energy. Unless you live in an area with geothermal activity, this is what you're system is going to be. Let me explain how this works: An air conditioner works by having two radiator-like devices, one in the house and one outside. Coolant is compressed in the one outside, which makes it hotter and that heat is bled off into the atmosphere. That compressed coolant is then pumped at high pressure into the house, where it goes through the other one and evaporates. This evaporation makes it cold and cools the house. Then the coolant goes back outside where it is compressed again... A heat pump is the same thing, except it can be run in both directions to either move heat into the house or out of the house, depending on whether heating or cooling is needed.

A geothermal heat pump system, which is what you would have residential heating and cooling works exactly the same way, except that it uses the ground instead of the air as the heat sink or heat source. This works better because the ground or ground water stays at a relatively constant temperature and can store a lot more heat without smaller changes in temperature that air can. When you heat water this way, you're still using energy from some other source to power the whole system.

If you really want to use geothermal energy as an energy source, you will need to drill down at least a kilometer or two to get to where temperatures are high enough to actually heat water to a usable temperature without having to rely on a heat pump system to essentially concentrate the heat. If you just want to run water through a pipe underground to heat the water to what you would use as hot water in your home, you're going to have to have to drill a hole somewhere around 2km deep to get to that temperature. If you did that, I bet that hole would cost many times what your house cost. And then, of course, you have the issue of keeping the water hot while it's making its way back to the surface.

 

[Silvercrest]

Under the circumstances, there's a certain irony to your signature.

 

[timelord1010]

I currently live in Pennsylvania and some homes here use geothermal. the ground source heat pumps usually pay for themselves within 7 to 10 years with the savings over oil or gas heating. In the summer they reverse and pump the heat out of the home for cooling. Ground Source Heat Pumps have been around here since the 1980's.
Home Depot also sells electric hot water heaters that are heat pumps, they pull the heat out of the air in your basement or utility room to help heat water.

 

[T'Girl]

So you live in a area with geo-thermal activity?

Geo-thermal activity is all around us, go deep enough and it gets hot enough. A vertical hole with pipes going up and down can be done anywhere.

If you're wanting true geothermal energy, and not just a heat pump system that uses the ground as a heat source/sink, then you will need to go very deep. Unless you live in an area with geothermal activity (and as UK resident, I doubt you do) you will need to go down several thousand feet.

Several thousand feet might not be enough. .The geothermal gradient is the rate at which the Earth's temperature increases with depth, indicating heat flowing from the Earth's warm interior to its cooler surface. Away from tectonic plate boundaries (one of which I do happen to live near) it is 25-30°C increase per kilometer of depth.

And remember, as pressure increases, like deep inside the Earth, the temperature required for water to turn into steam goes up too. You would need steam if you wanted a electrical generator. But maybe you don't need steam, just very hot water. If every individual house has to have several kilometers of pipe going both down and then separately back up, a regular little water pump likely won't do. You're going to need one of these in your backyard.

Here in Seattle I know some people with heat pumps outside their homes, they're fine in the spring and fall, however in the winter they also have to have a furnace too, it gets so cold here the heat pump can't completely heat their homes, in January and February by itself the heat pump can't get their inside temp above the low fifties.