Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Cyberchimp, Dec 13, 2020.

  1. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Apr 19, 2014
    Enterprise bowling alley
  2. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

    May 10, 2005
    Mr. Laser Beam is in the Confederation of Earth
    Reminds me of when Diego Luna was making Rogue One (he played Cassian Andor). They of course let him keep his own accent, and when he was talking to his father on the phone during a break in filming - or maybe it was before filming started, I can't remember which - his dad actually broke into tears of joy upon hearing that news.

    As for Georgiou: She always used to get on my nerves, but I actually liked her in "Terra Firma". That's the only time I ever got the sense that she's changed as a character.
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
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  3. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

    May 7, 2011
    Aug 10, 2399
    It was a thread started by a "Cadet" who hasn't posted again in it since. And he chose a nonsensical way to go about a hot-button topic with DSC, designed to stir things up from the start. That tells you all you need to know.
  4. SolarisOne

    SolarisOne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

  5. JamesRye

    JamesRye Commander Red Shirt

    Nov 7, 2012
    Well, my two cents about Georgiou and really MU characters in general are that it's hard to care about characters that blind people and chop off their hands. Or who stab people to death, order torture etc...I didn't understand why were Tilly and Saru sorry to see Georgiou leaving? Totally unearned. Georgiou literally ate Kelpians. It's crazy that she wasn't confined to the brig, or sent to some sort of Federation rehab facility. It's a logical fallacy that makes DSC hard to follow.

    Michelle Yeoh is a fine actress and she's been in some great movies. Terra Firma Part1 gave her the chance to be a little bit more than a Batman villain for the first time in DSC. What I hope is that a way is found to make her like a tough Quantum Leap type character - trying to atone for her past atrocities by putting right what once went wrong throughout different universes.

    Like I say though, very hard for a Hitler-like character to find redemption.
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  6. ananta

    ananta Captain Captain

    Mar 13, 2020
    I’m sorry but the ‘Hitler’ tag is just lazy on the part of certain fans. The difference is Hitler was responsible for the Nazi state, whereas Georgiou was a product of the Terran state, a totally dog eat dog or Terran stab Terran world. That’s a huge difference. It doesn’t mitigate the terrible things she did, but I think it’s brave of the writers and very Star Trekkian to undertake a redemption arc. I mean, it’s been there all along...beneath Georgiou’s bravado she’s gradually come to accept her home on Discovery and while she still had violent tendencies you can tell that she was gradually internalising Starfleet’s ethos (ie, she wasn’t going about killing people anymore!).

    I remember back when DS9’s writers decided to double down on Dukat and declare him to be “pure evil” (around the time of ‘Waltz’). The fan reaction wasn’t altogether positive because it seemed black and white rather than the shades of grey people had come to expect from DS9. Now, strangely, some fans take the opposite approach with Georgiou. They seem to want her to be seen as pure evil with no room for shades of grey or atonement.

    I’m not saying whether a person who has ever committed atrocities should be completely forgiven, but I am saying people change and even the worst of people are capable of becoming better people. Again, it’s such an optimistic, Star Trek approach to humanity. So I can’t see why some are resolutely refusing to accept that. I also like that the MU opens up a huge area of discussion with regard to the age old nature vs nurture debate. Generally human beings are very much a product of their environment. But even the worst of us are capable of becoming more than we are.
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  7. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

    Mar 23, 2004
    Gov Kodos on Mohammed's Radio, WZVN Boston
    Xena worked with that redemption arc. Other shows like Vikings don't even bother with that and just accept the culture. Still other shows like Black Sails slowly reveal how their societies made the main characters monsters. Characters like Georgiou make great fodder for drama.
  8. ED-209

    ED-209 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Feb 14, 2019
    OCP Headquaters
    She can eat my Ganglia anytime she wants.
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  9. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    This is precisely my feelings as well. Calling Georgiou "Space Hitler" is just a cheap dismissive idea rather than actually engaging with what the character is doing. And, your point about Trek is even more welcome. Trek is about optimism that humans, as bad as they can be, can become better. Yet, that opportunity is denied to someone who was never shown a better way? :wtf::eek::eek:

    Yeah, people loved Dukat and Kor and Garek, but these were not nice people. They committed violent acts and yet are regarded very well by the audience. I guess not seeking the atrocities on screen makes a difference? :shrug:
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  10. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

    May 10, 2005
    Mr. Laser Beam is in the Confederation of Earth
    In the prime universe, Georgiou hasn't done anything she can be charged with.

    The Federation has no jurisdiction over the MU, so her life in that universe is (legally speaking) irrelevant.
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  11. XCV330

    XCV330 Premium Member

    Sep 24, 2017
    She could probably kick your ass before getting out of the makeup chair.

    That sounds like your problem. No one else seems to have this problem. There are some earwax cleaners at your local pharmacy you can purchase over the counter, however, if buildup has become a problem.

    It's been pointed out that you're basically wrong about everything, but I'll just add this:

    First off, she's not a dog, if that's what you're implying. Assuming you're not, here are Michelle Yeoh's titles:
    Knight Grand Commander of the Order of the Perak State Crown
    Commander of the Order of Loyalty to the Crown of Malaysia
    and also Knight of the Order of Legion of Honor (France).
  12. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Apr 18, 2019
    How did she get that? XD
  13. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
  14. casey

    casey Commander Red Shirt

    Oct 8, 2008
    I clicked on this expecting a "space Hitler" thread, so kodos for subverting expectations!

    There are plenty of issues with the character but Michelle Yeoh isn't one of them. In fact, her presence is what makes up for the flaws of the character.
  15. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Admiral Premium Member

    May 19, 2005
    Far North Chicago Suburbs
    Yeah, if anyone can pull off a mustache-twirler, it's Michelle Yeoh.
    Emperor Georgiou with twirly mustache 2b.jpg
  16. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) If You Want it Premium Member

    Nov 4, 2001
    Nutopian North Pole
    Emperor Geraldo?
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  17. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Oct 16, 2003
    To be fair, when Burnham brought Emperor Georgiou over to the prime universe, the Federation had little or no experience with alternate realities.
    I don't think there was precedent for the Emperor's presence in the prime universe... furthermore, while she was a pretty much merciless dictator, technically speaking, she committed those crimes in another reality, not the prime one (so she hadn't really committed any crimes against the Federation or the people in the prime universe).

    Perhaps the Federation and Starfleet deemed themselves 'unfit' to properly judge her - but they clearly saw her as dangerous... therefore she was 'confined' to quarters on Discovery at first until a more appropriate time came when they could deal with her (its very possible the intent would have been to send her to a rehabilitation facility).

    What's more, she was brought into the prime universe during a conflict with the Klingons and was instrumental in brokering an armistice with them (when the Federation was desperate - which also granted her freedom), and demonstrated 'loose restraint' (after all, she didn't go on a rampage due to Michael Burnham warning her that she would come after her and that the Federation would be hunting her for the rest of her days... and ended up working for Section 31).

    The events happened very fast and Discovery was in the thick of it with the Klingons. It was illustrated the Federation had no time or the resources to worry about the Emperor when she first came on board, and the matter of her existence was delicate at best (not to mention classified).

    Could she be redeemed given what we know of her?
    Well, environment shapes behavior. That much was demonstrated when Tilly mentioned her experiences in the mirror universe. Changing the environment changes ones behavior (which is also shown in reality by epigenetics and neuroscience).

    I can provide you with a very grim description (atrocities really) of what humans do in reality without batting an eye:
    Humans needlessly breed, enslave, torture and kill over 70 billion sentient land animals every year for consumption (this alone is a heavy drain on our resources such as food, water and land - most of which goes to animal agriculture - and is one of the heaviest contributors to climate change). Also, this number increases to over 1 Trillion when you factor in all the marine life being needlessly culled every year.

    By comparison, the human holocaust (while still horrible) was a proverbial microscopic dot compared to what humans across the globe are doing to the environment (the whole planet and its ability to sustain life as we know it) and non-human sentient animals at large... but you don't see us incarcerating/reprimanding people (or more importantly industries and changing the whole system that is the primal cause) for doing those things.
    Because such behavior was largely normalized by the culture in which people live and because monetarily profitable industries are involved (and as a vegan, I have to say I live in a very unjust world - but I also understand that everyone has a capacity for change).

    We live in a system that heavily distorts people's values and leads to such behavior (and it's much easier to do that, and more difficult to change when the education level in the general population is lacking in science, relevant general subjects, critical thinking and problem solving).

    If you want a more human oriented response... even if you go by the most extreme figures from 'the black book of communism' (which are thought to be exaggerated), dictatorship (not communism) resulted in about 100 million people's deaths in 100 years.
    By comparison, Capitalism kills 11 million people (at least) every year due to starvation, preventable diseases and homelessness (just to name a few).
    So, reducing things to numbers alone, dictatorship (while definitely bad), resulted in 10x LESS deaths (human-wise) compared to the socio-economic system/Capitalism we currently use.

    I'm not trying to reduce the impact or the importance of the holocaust (far from it), however, I AM viewing it through a different context.

    Can Georgiou be redeemed?
    Well, she clearly demonstrated a behavioral change when Carl was evaluating her.
    As for why she hadn't demonstrated this more openly while in the prime universe...
    As an empress (before Michael brought her to the prime universe), she couldn't show any kind of 'weakness' to her subjects (if she wanted to stay alive) and I guess her pride prevented her from doing that too (so, it only makes sense she would hold onto something like that for longest even when living in an environment where everyone were not out to get her).
    This was the last thing to change in her when Carl weighed her... suddenly, she was an empress again, and she tried to bring about change in the environment she originated from (succeeding even in some instances).

    Also, why would the Federation allow this individual to roam free?
    Well, they didn't at first.
    They made a deal with her at the height of the Federation/Klingon conflict and the Federation sticks by its agreements. Second, on an individual basis, the Federation by the 23rd century already encountered individuals or empires with similar behaviors... so I guess its possible they felt confident they could prevent her from running out of control and at the very least restrict her options to the point where she would basically undergo a field-induced conditioning.

    Its also possible/likely that the Federation directly requested S31 to recruit her in an attempt to keep a close eye on Georgiou given how open S31 was back then and that it 'still' answered to the Federation (and took orders from it) for the most part.
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  18. AntonyF

    AntonyF Official Tahmoh Taster Rear Admiral

    Nov 9, 2000
    London, UK
    Everyone has an accent. Everyone in the show. So that I don't get. I'd prefer hers to screeching and crying.

    In all seriousness Yeoh is a great actress and her character for me was the one highlight of the show. She was funny and smart and could kick ass. And knowing the actress can do herself does add a certain oomph to it.

    The show as ever used her badly... in a sense that she was the deus ex machina when they wanted to do stories which went against the grain of what would be acceptable for the crew do. Which was basically every week.

    But all scenes with here were just better.
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  19. King Bob!

    King Bob! The King of Kings Premium Member

    Jan 30, 2001
    Yeoh is great. Too bad they didn't give me a character I could root for. I feel icky every time I see her on screen, because the screenwriters are trying to normalize a character who committed massive atrocities as her backstory.
  20. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Nov 5, 2008
    A type 13 planet in it's final stage
    When the S31 series was announced I was very much against the idea and found the character utterly irredeemable (and I still think they picked a character conceived as WAY too evil). I think they've done well this season to give her a conscience, albeit a very twisted one.

    Someone here summed up the issues here asking why Osyrra is expected to answer for her crimes when Georgiou isn't? Statute of limitations??