Genesis Question
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^Thanks!
--Sran
--Sran
We can't say for certain whether or not Genesis was a failure, for all we know when the Genesis device exploded it created the Geneiss planet. So in essence it wasn't used as it was supposed to be. There is no evidence to prove or disprove that it terraformed Regula.
Plus we also know of one other seemingly successful use of proto-matter in DSN it was used to re-ignite a dead star and it seemed to work. So there is no evidence that use of proto-matter caused Genesis to fail.
Plus we also know of one other seemingly successful use of proto-matter in DSN it was used to re-ignite a dead star and it seemed to work. So there is no evidence that use of proto-matter caused Genesis to fail.
^I don't think the proto-matter had anything to do with Genesis' being considered a failure. The experiment failed because the planet destroyed itself in a matter of weeks and wasn't suitable for colonization as originally intended. David's decision to use proto-matter was criticized by Saavik because it was a means of cutting corners to finish the project rather than finding another solution.
--Sran
--Sran
Hmh? McCoy was arrested for using the word in public - because everybody else in the universe had already been warned not to! We never met a person who would not have known about Genesis, the Famous Forbidden World Where Nobody Can Go And There's Nothing Interesting There, Now Move Along.
The Federation might have an interest in keeping secret what transpired at Genesis. Nobody else would. Klingons would probably broadcast their version everywhere, and they would find a highly interested audience.
Granted, nobody would really know "how to cook" now that the Marcuses had been shut up and down, but everybody would have an interest in finding out. Including those UFP or Starfleet parties who did not yet know, as the defense of the Federation might one day hinge on knowing exactly what a Genesis Wave is.
Timo Saloniemi
You're assuming an awful lot here, Timo. That we don't meet a person who hasn't heard about Genesis is hardly surprising, as a movie has to stay with its plot. And as the plot is driven by the characters integral to it, anything and everything that happens in a film will be tied to them. McCoy was arrested because he used the word in public, but he was a Starfleet officer who had been told not a breathe a word of it to anyone else.
Would civilians have been given similar instructions? We're never shown what they were told about Genesis because it was never depicted on screen. I doubt they were told not to talk about an experiment they didn't understand. Governments don't work that way. If they have something that they don't want civilians to know, they invent a cover story. They don't ask the public not to talk about something they're not even supposed to know about.
Timo said:
From whom? Nobody in the Federation took them seriously unless they were brandishing disruptor rifles. The Romulans said nothing about Genesis, nor did the Gorn, Tholians, or any other Alpha Quadrant government. The Klingon Ambassador appeared at the special session where charges were filed against Kirk and his men for their actions surrounding the loss of Enterprise and was not allowed to extradite Kirk for trial. He was humiliated by Sarek after the latter pointed out that Kruge instigated the situation at Genesis by destroying Grissom and killing David Marcus. Kruge's ship also fired on Enterprise, and Kruge himself assaulted a Federation flag officer.
Timo said:
I agree with this. I'm sure a lot of people- Section 31, for example- would have relished getting their hands on any information related to Genesis and its potential as a weapon. But would they have had an opportunity? David was dead. It's not clear where Carol went after TWOK. Was she arrested for her failure to protect her project? Was she merely reassigned with instructions to never talk about Genesis to anyone for fear that its secrets would fall into the wrong hands again?
Kirk's report was definitely leaked by someone, though it's not clear how. Valkris gave the information to Kruge, but where did she get it? Memory Alpha suggests that she undertook the mission to restore her family name, but no details of how she came by the material are given. It would have been interesting had she actually been a spy aboard Enterprise during the Battle of the Mutara Nebula, but there's no evidence to suggest that's what happened.
--Sran
One thing though - the alien captain had certainly heard of it.
"Genesis allowed is not, is planet forbidden" IIRC. So there was a definate Federation "Keep Out" warning there. That is unfortunately one of the plotholes - they forbid anyone from going there, but only had a small science vessel, in orbit of the planet, to enforce this "no-fly zone."
If not a requirement of the script, Starfleet should have at least posted a couple of ships there to patrol an exclusion-zone around the planet.
"Genesis allowed is not, is planet forbidden" IIRC. So there was a definate Federation "Keep Out" warning there. That is unfortunately one of the plotholes - they forbid anyone from going there, but only had a small science vessel, in orbit of the planet, to enforce this "no-fly zone."
If not a requirement of the script, Starfleet should have at least posted a couple of ships there to patrol an exclusion-zone around the planet.
He may have heard of Genesis, but there's no way of knowing how much he knew about the planet or the project that spawned it. That he knew it wasn't allowed could be for any number of reasons. Maybe his ship makes regular cargo runs near the Mutara sector and was stopped by Grissom or another Federation vessel patrolling the area.
He knew who Dr. McCoy was, but the Enterprise crew was the Starfleet equivalent of the Beatles. I don't think there was anyone who didn't know who Kirk and his friends were. Even Mr. Adventure was in awe of the admiral when he strolled into the transporter room later that evening.
--Sran
We don't know the range of the sensing systems in the TREK universe and how commonplace they may be. Professional astronomers and researchers might have access to starship-grade tools, but would ground-based astronomy, as we know it, still exist in a universe with fleets of starships? (Why fund it when a starship or unmanned FTL probe could get better information?)
Given time, what happened in Mutara might become known, but how many light-weeks, -months, or -years away is the nearest inhabited world that would see it? It's more likely that people would find out from leaks or hacks of the Starfleet databases.
The only thing the alien in the bar knew was that "Genesis planet is forbidden." Talos was a forbidden system. Maybe Starfleet had found something just as dangerous and warned all travelers to avoid the area.
You're assuming that everyone in the twenty fourth century is a space-traveler who's aware of every astrological phenomenon. I don't know if that's the case. Do people today know about every weather disturbance or natural disaster? The major events (severe tornadoes, hurricanes) get attention, but if a lightning strike knocks over a tree on the east side of Indianapolis, who besides people in the area know about it or even care?
The Mutara Nebula seems to be located near Klingon space. As the Klingons were enemies of the Federation during the time of the Genesis fiasco, it's possible that most Federation citizens avoided the area even before Genesis was formed. The planet's sudden existence might have gotten attention from civilian scientists and astronomers who had no direct ties to Starfleet or the Federation's science division, but can we really expect that they'd have gotten the word out about the planet by posting information on a blog? If Starfleet was really serious about keeping Genesis under wraps, it's likely they'd have had any such material taken down before it had a chance to become disseminated.
--Sran
To the contrary, I can't see any way to avoid the conclusions I made.
Civilians knew that "Genesis is a world forbidden!". So they were told that Genesis was (cue dramatic music, Blackadder style) a world that (cue even more dramatic music) was forbidden...
Obviously, the Feds'd not tell the truth about why it was forbidden. This would be obvious to the public, that is! The mere fact of it being forbidden would make it of top interest to the default ambulance chaser and the opportunist trader, and there would be a ready source of additional information for those interested.
Why not? They would be telling what Genesis was all about, while the government would either not be telling, or would be blatantly lying. I'd think just about everybody would listen to the Klingons here. (Especially since they do brandish disruptor rifles!)
That if anything is a big whopper of an assumption. I'd think all the above governments, and more, would be screaming at the top of their voices about Genesis once it became public enough to be forbidden. What possible reason would they have not to? The UFP was caught red-handed developing powerful weapons, after all.
Which would be a perfect motivation for the Klingons to go public on all aspects of the story. Especially the ones that would be disadvantageous to the Empire; if Klingons held the monopoly to public information on the subject, they could make themselves smell of roses and tar the UFP. Sure, some of their propaganda would go disbelieved, but enough people would be saying things about smoke and fire, and any UFP attempt at clearing their reputation would only worsen the situation.
That's interesting indeed. Was Valkris even a Klingon, biologically or culturally? Many parties would be interested in spying on the UFP, and many of those would be freelancing and selling to the numerous bidders out there. Perhaps some specialize in catching and deciphering Starfleet transmissions, and Valkris was one of those... And Kirk's request of Genesis data was actually one for uploading the data from a distant archive source, interceptable by Valkris.
Of course, the material in the ambassadorial meeting is different from what Kirk got, featuring Kirk himself as a narrator - quite possibly a report sent by Kirk to Starfleet after the Genesis events and intercepted at that point.
Plus, it's probably located close to Ceti Alpha, given the issues of travel time and isolation-from-rest-of-the-world in the movie. And nobody noticed biblical-scale rearranging of the Ceti Alpha system for decades.
Sure, Mutara might be a more energetic phenomenon, its disappearance less easy to miss in a standard, cursory study of space by long range FTL means (if such even exist). But it might also be a very small and insignificant nebula - after all, it was within a short impulse hop of the Regula star, basically within that star system. There might be the occasional bout of space lightning there, as we saw - but followed by bouts of silence afterwards, and a slightly longer bout would not raise eyebrows even on Vulcan.
The timescale here appears to be compact indeed. Kirk hasn't even returned home yet before Starfleet already dispatches another ship to Genesis - one curiously undergunned, as if out of fear of political repercussions, yet commanded by a very high-ranking officer in comparison with her apparent size. Mere days later at most, people in bars know about Genesis. Attempts at information containment by Starfleet might have been completely hopeless; they'd be totally late even as the movie began.
Timo Saloniemi
Sorry if anyone has already mentioned this, but there was a wonderful exchange in the novelization that I wish had been on film. Maybe it was part of the original script? It went something like this:
Terrell: "Maybe it's something we can transplant."
Marcus: "What if someone had transplanted us when we were pre-animate microbes?"
Terrell: "Maybe someone did."
Terrell: "Maybe it's something we can transplant."
Marcus: "What if someone had transplanted us when we were pre-animate microbes?"
Terrell: "Maybe someone did."
What could happen the instant Starfleet quarantined the Mutura sector, is that people would get curious and turn their sensors to the Mutura sector.
No of course they don't have to reveal details about the Genesis, just that the planet has been named Genesis and we want you to stay clear. It is possible they could spin the planet as always being their it was just obscured by the Nebula.
No of course they don't have to reveal details about the Genesis, just that the planet has been named Genesis and we want you to stay clear. It is possible they could spin the planet as always being their it was just obscured by the Nebula.
Which is probably even true, considering that Genesis was never credited with the ability to create planets.
Now that would make Marcus sound like the sort of tree-hugger who orders the hunt for perfect desert worlds not because "contaminated" planets would ruin the validity of her precious experiment, but because "contaminated" planets are sacred. I'm sort of relieved that the line isn't in the actual movie, because nothing the Marcuses did for a living was indicative of a desire to preserve existing things!
Timo Saloniemi
Now that would make Marcus sound like the sort of tree-hugger who orders the hunt for perfect desert worlds not because "contaminated" planets would ruin the validity of her precious experiment, but because "contaminated" planets are sacred. I'm sort of relieved that the line isn't in the actual movie, because nothing the Marcuses did for a living was indicative of a desire to preserve existing things!
Timo Saloniemi
Really? My interpretation of that exchange in the movie, and all the scenes in which they're determined to keep Genesis out of the military, are that she does not believe in altering a planet with any existing potential for life with Genesis. I never read it as concern over another variable in the experiment. I don't see what difference it would make what's on the planet from a technical point of view.
The Marcuses work to change the world, by changing worlds. It's not exactly a "preservation" philosophy. Plus, they are in the business of creating potential for life, so what's the point of worrying about loss of such potential in Genesis detonations? There's no loss!
What's on the planet is controlled circumstances. Without those, science is invalid. If Carol Marcus cooks life out of existing life, it's not the same as cooking life out of lifelessness.
It's a different question what the required circumstances really were. Apparently, the perfect world for Genesis has oxygen but no life, which is probably a pretty rare thing - and might explain why Terrell and his crew had to spend so much time searching, and were getting so tired and careless toward the end. But why the need for such? In the simulation, it seemed an airless body was to be converted.
(Or was the presence of breathable air on Ceti Alpha V something our Reliant heroes initially missed or misidentified, just like they missed Khan's crew and the eels? Doesn't sound likely. And the two officers readily removed their helmets without expressing surprise at the prevailing conditions...)
Timo Saloniemi
What's on the planet is controlled circumstances. Without those, science is invalid. If Carol Marcus cooks life out of existing life, it's not the same as cooking life out of lifelessness.
It's a different question what the required circumstances really were. Apparently, the perfect world for Genesis has oxygen but no life, which is probably a pretty rare thing - and might explain why Terrell and his crew had to spend so much time searching, and were getting so tired and careless toward the end. But why the need for such? In the simulation, it seemed an airless body was to be converted.
(Or was the presence of breathable air on Ceti Alpha V something our Reliant heroes initially missed or misidentified, just like they missed Khan's crew and the eels? Doesn't sound likely. And the two officers readily removed their helmets without expressing surprise at the prevailing conditions...)
Timo Saloniemi
Yes, there is. As Spock said later, if there is life on a planet that Genesis is used on that life would be destroyed in favor of the new matrix. The purpose of Genesis was to transform lifeless planets. There is no contradiction between Marcus wanting to create new biospheres out of lifeless planets and a desire to not interfere with life (or potential life) that already exists.
Correct. The potential for either outcome exists, but which outcome ultimately manifests itself is dependent upon the decisions and actions of whomever controls the device.
--Sran
In other words, she has a conscience. Not a hard concept for people to grasp, I hope.
Whatever potential a planet may have to harbor life over time just teeters into butterfly-effect debates. Everything you do could have ramifications pro and con in geologic timescales. That's not something most people worry about, otherwise why get up each morning?
They drew the line at existing microbes, which, IMHO, does fall under treehugger territory in my book.
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