Last week I rewatched Generations on Blu-Ray and there is one aspect of the timeline I always wondered about. In the Nexus we see Kirk reliving a time 9 years prior (and then 11) to the events of the beginning of the film. I've always wondered when this time in his life was that he almost settled down with a woman named Antonia before returning to Starfleet. My best guess has always been between the first two movies but can anyone who follows the timelines more closely confirm or correct me on that?
Generations timeline question (minor spoilers)
- Thread starter cml898
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You seem to have guessed well. The time Kirk entered the Nexus was explicated as 78 years before the TNG part of the story, sharp. That necessarily makes it 2293, meaning the Antonia thing must have happened in 2284, which necessarily is slightly before the second movie (where a bottle of ale from 2283 is considered well-fermented, meaning the year must be at least 2284).
I mean, that's how the writers apparently intended it. But Kirk says "nine years ago" only after having declared that the cabin itself was sold "years ago". Perhaps he means the Antonia bit came nine years before he sold the cabin, not nine years before he disappeared from aboard the Enterprise-B?
Another ambiguity is whether Kirk ever actually left Starfleet. All we know is that originally, he told Antonia he would be going back. Might be he was on a weekend holiday with her, and duly returned to the office afterwards - but in the Nexus, he considers handing in his resignation to the surprised clerk at Starfleet HQ the very next day.
Timo Saloniemi
I mean, that's how the writers apparently intended it. But Kirk says "nine years ago" only after having declared that the cabin itself was sold "years ago". Perhaps he means the Antonia bit came nine years before he sold the cabin, not nine years before he disappeared from aboard the Enterprise-B?
Another ambiguity is whether Kirk ever actually left Starfleet. All we know is that originally, he told Antonia he would be going back. Might be he was on a weekend holiday with her, and duly returned to the office afterwards - but in the Nexus, he considers handing in his resignation to the surprised clerk at Starfleet HQ the very next day.
Timo Saloniemi
I think that was the Carol Marcus thing. She was on Sheridan's? Planet when Chang attacked and was critically wounded. When she recovered, she and Kirk were supposed to set up some type of living arrangement when he was recalled...if I remember correctly.
Yup, that's what the novelization of ST6 tells us.
Never thought highly of it. I mean, Kirk didn't think highly of living with Carol in ST2, or vice versa, and ST3 didn't suggest that anything had changed in that respect. If anything, ST:GEN and the bit with Demora Sulu suggests that Kirk steered completely clear of "arrangements" of any sort of permanence or significance.
Timo Saloniemi
Never thought highly of it. I mean, Kirk didn't think highly of living with Carol in ST2, or vice versa, and ST3 didn't suggest that anything had changed in that respect. If anything, ST:GEN and the bit with Demora Sulu suggests that Kirk steered completely clear of "arrangements" of any sort of permanence or significance.
Timo Saloniemi
Although the title of the thread below doesn't refer to Generations, the time period to which you refer has been discussed at some length in it. You might find the thread interesting:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=167368
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=167368
considering how often Kirk got involved in time travel, the 'nexus' could just have been his 'memory' of events that had been changed in the normal timeline by interference later on...
That's just my interpretation of the Nexus though, i always believed it built it's 'reality' from the memories and minds of the people inside... so with the timeline being so regularly altered, it's quite possible that Kirk's memory of things is actually different to how history records things happened...
M
That's just my interpretation of the Nexus though, i always believed it built it's 'reality' from the memories and minds of the people inside... so with the timeline being so regularly altered, it's quite possible that Kirk's memory of things is actually different to how history records things happened...
M
Hmmm, I never thought the memory was anything but true. I just had trouble at first understanding why Kirk was alone in some cabin in the woods instead of onboard the Enterprise or in an admiral's office.
No, the 'memories' definitely aren't true... the first real scene we see in the Nexus is Picard married and with children... we know that isn't true, so it must be built from his mind and desires...
simply extrapolating from that i can assume that the 'memories' are the same... they're not real, simply a reality built on Kirk or Picard's memories of events...
M
simply extrapolating from that i can assume that the 'memories' are the same... they're not real, simply a reality built on Kirk or Picard's memories of events...
M
To be sure, Picard isn't seeing a "past" when he celebrates Christmas in the fake setting. He's seeing an "alternate present" or even an "alternate future", as far as we can tell. All the pasts witnessed may indeed be true in the sense of being faithful reproductions of circumstances that once applied, even if the character himself is inserted in unrealistic fashion (he realizes that this is past, for one thing).
Of course, all the pasts will soon become "unreal" if the character is allowed to meddle with them. But the starting point would probably still be true to history, after a fashion. That is, Kirk's cabin holiday might be an unrealistic combination of remembered things, such as a dog that's not yet dead in a cabin that's not yet sold, but Kirk could identify each bit if history and point out how their presence diverges from reality. We don't really have a reason to think otherwise, not merely on basis of Picard experiencing his own fantasy alone and not vocally commenting on what was real and what was "unrealistically combined" and what was utter fiction.
Timo Saloniemi
Of course, all the pasts will soon become "unreal" if the character is allowed to meddle with them. But the starting point would probably still be true to history, after a fashion. That is, Kirk's cabin holiday might be an unrealistic combination of remembered things, such as a dog that's not yet dead in a cabin that's not yet sold, but Kirk could identify each bit if history and point out how their presence diverges from reality. We don't really have a reason to think otherwise, not merely on basis of Picard experiencing his own fantasy alone and not vocally commenting on what was real and what was "unrealistically combined" and what was utter fiction.
Timo Saloniemi
That was right over my head, sir.
Mine, too, on a second read. I guess I shouldn't type quite that late at night.
Basically, I agree with Methos that the memories are inaccurate as a whole. But the specific details that Kirk spells out for Picard and for the audience are still likely to be true and accurate - and Kirk even tells us where their application in the overall fantasy is inaccurate, and he should know. It's not as if any of the three people we meet in the Nexus would really demonstrate amnesia or false memories.
Timo Saloniemi
Basically, I agree with Methos that the memories are inaccurate as a whole. But the specific details that Kirk spells out for Picard and for the audience are still likely to be true and accurate - and Kirk even tells us where their application in the overall fantasy is inaccurate, and he should know. It's not as if any of the three people we meet in the Nexus would really demonstrate amnesia or false memories.
Timo Saloniemi
^Whut?? 
It's possible that the reason Kirk got stuck with the memory he did was because of seeing a grown Demora. He's mind is on "what could have been" gets zapped into the Nexus and figures he has a chance to "do it right" and have a life he missed out on.
Combination of real memory and wish fulfillment.
Sounds quite likely. Although Picard was offered an alternate take on his own, pressing and nagging issue of lack of family right away - whereas Kirk only worked his way towards founding a family in a circumspect way that involved two or three "having a holiday in the mountains" steps, seemingly unrelated to breeding with Antonia.
Probably both these old, single men had fairly similar sentiments floating on the top layers of their subconscious. But by the looks of it, Kirk might have been more concerned about retiring and enjoying life without military service than about having offspring.
Timo Saloniemi
Probably both these old, single men had fairly similar sentiments floating on the top layers of their subconscious. But by the looks of it, Kirk might have been more concerned about retiring and enjoying life without military service than about having offspring.
Timo Saloniemi
According to my issue of Star Trek- The Magazine Vol. 1 Issue 6:
Kirk commanded a second five-year mission after the V'Ger incident, which ended in 2276. There is another five year gap until he retires in 2281. In this time it is stated that this is when he met Antonia, lived with her for 3 years in that mountain cabin.up until he rejoined Starfleet in 2284.
As for Kirk's personal "Nexus" I think it is as he was not happy with how his life had turned out. If I am not mistaken, besides Rayna (who obviously he still doesn't remember thanks to Spock's mind meld) , perhaps he thought Antonia was his "THE ONE". Hence his maudlin demeanor after meeting Demora.
KIRK: Scotty, it simply amazes me!
SCOTTY: And what would that be, sir?
KIRK: Sulu! When did he find time for a family?
SCOTTY: It's like you always said if it is important to ya, you make the time.:
SCOTTY: Is that your problem? Finding retirement a wee lonely are we?
between that and caressing the E-B's command chair I agree.
Kirk commanded a second five-year mission after the V'Ger incident, which ended in 2276. There is another five year gap until he retires in 2281. In this time it is stated that this is when he met Antonia, lived with her for 3 years in that mountain cabin.up until he rejoined Starfleet in 2284.
As for Kirk's personal "Nexus" I think it is as he was not happy with how his life had turned out. If I am not mistaken, besides Rayna (who obviously he still doesn't remember thanks to Spock's mind meld) , perhaps he thought Antonia was his "THE ONE". Hence his maudlin demeanor after meeting Demora.
KIRK: Scotty, it simply amazes me!
SCOTTY: And what would that be, sir?
KIRK: Sulu! When did he find time for a family?
SCOTTY: It's like you always said if it is important to ya, you make the time.:
SCOTTY: Is that your problem? Finding retirement a wee lonely are we?
between that and caressing the E-B's command chair I agree.
That's one possible take. Another is that Kirk never had a second mission of any sort aboard the Enterprise before ST2; that he never retired; that he never lived with Antonia for more than a weekend; and that ST:TMP happened in 2276 or thereabouts.
I think you need to rewatch the ending of the episode - it's not necessarily Rayna that he's being helped to forget...
Timo Saloniemi
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