Generations: Klingon Battle Tactics

[publiusr]

I noticed that. The Ent-D's explosion was also a re-use of the Grissom explosion in ST III IIRC.

The Ent D used a TMP type photo torpedo effect--"great shards of light" to make it look more powerful.

This was just a gang with a run down ship that got lucky.

Ships with the name Enterprise don't seem to do well with BoPs--or nebulae for that matter.

 

[trekshark]

weren't both ships pretty much sitting still in orbit during that fight? even if they had tried changing course they didn't have enough momentum to really move at all, they would have basically just pointed the nose in another direction

what I never got was why they Ent-D didn't try rotating shield frequencies. That's something that they should have had a standard command on the tactical console to engage at will ever since the best of both worlds

 

[Bender Bending Rodríguez]

weren't both ships pretty much sitting still in orbit during that fight? even if they had tried changing course they didn't have enough momentum to really move at all, they would have basically just pointed the nose in another direction

what I never got was why they Ent-D didn't try rotating shield frequencies. That's something that they should have had a standard command on the tactical console to engage at will ever since the best of both worlds

They should have just left orbit and pummelled the bop with torpedos. Doesn't a galaxy class starship have 250 torpedos normally in stock?

 

[Praxius]

The Duras Sisters never struck me as stupid or lacking experience--they made a semi-successful play for control of the entire Empire after all. So why didn't one of them order an immediate course correction as soon as the ship started to cloak, so they weren't on the same trajectory as the solitary torpedo.

Why didn't either of them do *anything*? After "what?", neither of them say a single world, or attempt anything at all. Everyone just stares at the viewscreen in shock. Ordering evasive maneuvers wouldn't have been out of line!

But it had to be this way, because plot.

Kind of the same thing as what happened in Undiscovered Country.

To be.... or not.... to *splat*

 

[Timo]

That's actually a very different situation. The very fact that the torpedo was homing in on Chang's fully cloaked vessel was proof enough that evasion would be impossible...

Now, the Duras sisters had some reaction time. How to use it? They had been walloping a Galaxy class supership with their old BoP thanks to either one or two gifts from Soran: the ability to defeat the starship's shields, and the likely boost to their own shields. With the forced cloaking, the latter advantage was gone, and the former was of no defensive use. So, in raw practical terms, the sisters were done.

But would real Klingons give up even when convinced of the impossibility of victory or even survival? Probably not - they would try to dodge this one bullet, then the next one, then the next, even though ST6 suggests Starfleet torps would eventually defeat the cloak.

So we probably have to deduce that the sisters had siphoned in too many Romulan influences from their unholy alliance, and true to the rather resigned customs of that culture (see "BoT"), believed their time was up.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cyke101]

In both "Rascals" and Generations, the Enterprise gets pretty soundly defeated by opponents using rather outdated Birds of Prey. The other commonality? Riker was in command both times. Hmm....

Forget Insurrection. The real "Riker Maneuver" is to get shot, order a fancy flying maneuver, get shot, fire once, get shot again. Maybe sprinkle in a yell of "REPORRRRT!!" in there for variety

 

[Praxius]

That's actually a very different situation. The very fact that the torpedo was homing in on Chang's fully cloaked vessel was proof enough that evasion would be impossible...

Now, the Duras sisters had some reaction time. How to use it? They had been walloping a Galaxy class supership with their old BoP thanks to either one or two gifts from Soran: the ability to defeat the starship's shields, and the likely boost to their own shields. With the forced cloaking, the latter advantage was gone, and the former was of no defensive use. So, in raw practical terms, the sisters were done.

But would real Klingons give up even when convinced of the impossibility of victory or even survival? Probably not - they would try to dodge this one bullet, then the next one, then the next, even though ST6 suggests Starfleet torps would eventually defeat the cloak.

So we probably have to deduce that the sisters had siphoned in too many Romulan influences from their unholy alliance, and true to the rather resigned customs of that culture (see "BoT"), believed their time was up.

Timo Saloniemi

General Chang could have gone to Warp...... they just stood there watching this torpedo zip around in loops as it followed their trail for several seconds. He had a longer window of opportunity than the Duras Sisters

 

[OpenMaw]

General Chang could have gone to Warp...... they just stood there watching this torpedo zip around in loops as it followed their trail for several seconds. He had a longer window of opportunity than the Duras Sisters

Somehow running away doesn't seem in Chang's character. Using a cloak to obtain the upper hand? Sure... But running away? Eh... Too much pride.

 

[Mytran]

Warp away, shoot down the torpedo, come back fighting. VICTORY!

 

[Praxius]

"Kahless himself said, 'Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory...'"
"...and ending a battle to save an empire is no defeat."

 

[Timo]

I guess the practical problem there would be how fast a BoP can jump to warp. I could see problems with starting the warp engines when the ship is rigged for very complex cloaking operations...

It's curious that Trek combat virtually never features warping to safety or to a respite. Perhaps it's just that weapons fire can so easily collapse a warp field - it's too big a risk to try and run.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hober Mallow]

General Chang could have gone to Warp...... they just stood there watching this torpedo zip around in loops as it followed their trail for several seconds. He had a longer window of opportunity than the Duras Sisters

Yes, but he had an important Hamlet quote to deliver.

 

[Avro Arrow]

It's curious that Trek combat virtually never features warping to safety or to a respite. Perhaps it's just that weapons fire can so easily collapse a warp field - it's too big a risk to try and run.

We did sort of see this in TFF... Enterprise warps away from Nimbus III just before getting hit from Klaa's BoP. (And yes, I know you said "virtually never", not "never"! And yeah, I guess that wasn't really during battle, because they did it to avoid a battle entirely...)

 

[Hypaspist]

They could have done it by having the Klingons use their classic "Saber Dance" maneuver. Klingon ships are invariably more lightly armed than even their Federation equivalents, but they are more maneuverable. Coming in on an attack pattern to knock out their weapons one by one was how they could have done it.

So there it's fixed as far as I'm concerned. Picard picking a bad way of using the Nexus to go back and Kirk are the big problems in the film now.

Seriously this was the only time I ever didn't like Shatner as Kirk.

 

[Timo]

Well, maneuvering never helps in Star Trek battles, so if it did here, this would be an inconsistency.

That is, Starfleet phasers (other than the pulse things of the Defiant, and some small craft phasers) have a 100% hit rate against uncloaked targets. Torpedoes may miss on occasion, but phasers always hit, without exception - the targeting systems are that good.

Also, it's a story point of sorts that the Duras sisters factually have no hope of winning, or getting even, or even getting a decent fight started. Soran's interference changes the game, which is the dramatic twist that the story needs (Soran is willing to stoop to aiding all sorts of violent criminals to get what he wants) - not another generic space battle.

Timo Saloniei

 

[Lance]

Seriously this was the only time I ever didn't like Shatner as Kirk.

I thought he was great. Being out there without Spock and Bones to back him up for a change, Shatner falls back on playing his interactions with Picard with a kind of quiet disdain at best, and mild annoyance at worst. I also love the way he reacts to Picard asking for his help: a kind of sigh, and then a "Why doesn't somebody else save the universe for a change?". A perfectly human reaction from the Kirk-man.