Generation nay sayers!!!

[RobertScorpio]

When I read the usual dribble about Generations it usually comes down to this...

"Why didn't Picard leave the nexes earlier, perhaps days earlier, and stop Soran further back in time?"

Spoiler: Trek XI spoilers

And yet here we have Romulans going back into time in a period where earth is somewhat advanced...why not trace Kirk's family back further...heck, why not just go back and wipe out Earth..

Hell, why did Kirk and Spock go back and kidnap a whale in the 1980s instead of the 1280s?

Generations just gets better with time, IMO. Where as FC doesn't. IMO.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

In ST4, I don't think they knew when exactly they'd end up in history.

 

[Nebusj]

In ST4, I don't think they knew when exactly they'd end up in history.

Spock has a target in mind of the late 20th century before they begin the slingshot. He's not able to be more exact with the available equipment. So, whether they knew just when it would be depends on how exact you want ``exact'' to be.

And on a note about the original post, is it possible to not include spoilers for upcoming movies in threads that are not in the Star Trek XI forum, please? Some of us would like to let the movie spoil itself.

 

[Kolrad]

It's a good thing Kirk and company ended up in the 20th century in STIV; otherwise, there wouldn't have been any nuclear wessels for repairing the Bird of Prey's engines.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

Hell, why did Kirk and Spock go back and kidnap a whale in the 1980s instead of the 1280s?

Hmmm, true true. I suppose retrieving a whale would be easier from the 1200s, but that wouldn't make for a very good movie. Perhaps the Bird of Prey didn't have enough speed to do that big of a jump? I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but it was shaking apart....

A whale from the 13th Century might sing in a strange dialect compared to modern whales. Or, maybe it would be confused by such a radical time displacement. Then again, if they're communicating with space already...

Perhaps they got a whale from the 20th Century so that the whale conversation could pick up where it left off.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

heck, why not just go back and wipe out Earth..

Romulans are not prepared for mass murder, as demonstrated in Nemesis.

 

[Christopher]

The logical answer for why Picard didn't go back further is the Temporal Prime Directive -- he didn't want to screw with the timeline any more than he had to, so he went back to only slightly before the critical moment.

Spock's choice of destination in TVH may have been based on the same principle of minimal temporal intervention; he chose a time when humpbacks were already near extinction so that taking a mating pair of them out of the timeline wouldn't have any major impact on the future of the species, since they hardly had any future left. If they'd gone back to 1200 and taken whales from there, it would've prevented thousands of whales in subsequent generations from ever being born, and who knows what effect that would've had on their society, or on the ecosystem?

Also, by picking a time close to the date of the humpbacks' extinction, Spock made it easier to convince the whales to come with him. The whales of that generation would've been aware of their species' descent toward extinction as a concrete fact, while whales from centuries earlier might've responded with a "Whatchoo talkin' bout, biped?" Also, whales living in captivity and seeing their species' imminent extinction at hand would've been more easily persuaded by the offer to travel into a better future.

 

[cardinal biggles]

And on a note about the original post, is it possible to not include spoilers for upcoming movies in threads that are not in the Star Trek XI forum, please? Some of us would like to let the movie spoil itself.

I've gone ahead and fixed that. Sorry if you saw anything you didn't mean to.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

When I read the usual dribble about Generations it usually comes down to this...

"Why didn't Picard leave the nexes earlier, perhaps days earlier, and stop Soran further back in time?"

Spoiler: Trek XI spoilers

And yet here we have Romulans going back into time in a period where earth is somewhat advanced...why not trace Kirk's family back further...heck, why not just go back and wipe out Earth..

Hell, why did Kirk and Spock go back and kidnap a whale in the 1980s instead of the 1280s?

Generations just gets better with time, IMO. Where as FC doesn't. IMO.

Rob
Scorpio

They both suck. But at least FC isn't boring.

 

[Maurice]

Oh, sure. it's easy to distill Generations down to that one complaint, but that singular complaint is emblematic of that's wrong with the film. In general, it's illogical and poorly thought out. Things happen because the writers want them to happen that way, without concern if it's sensible or organic to the story.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I was rather snarky in my initial response, but really, that little plot point was the least of my problems with GEN. Ultimately, the movie seemed like a sad excuse to get the TNG crew on screen and to kill off Kirk so TNG could finally have it all to itself. The movie criminally wasted the talent of Malcolm McDowell (Hollywood seems to have made a hobby of that, especially in the early 90s), foisted those insufferable klingon sisters on us one... more... time! and rushed through what should have been major plot points (the E-D's destruction, Data's emotion chip, Kirk's freakin' DEATH) in listless and perfunctory fashion. By contrast, FC made little sense and the Borg Queen conceptually ruined the Borg (though, as played by Alice Krige, she was captivating in a way no TNG villain has approached) but it was entertaining as hell, like a Brosnan Bond movie. GEN barely approached Dalton quality.

 

[Gagarin]

"Whatchoo talkin' bout, biped?"

bwhahahaha!
that whole post, Christopher, well said!

 

[RobertScorpio]

I was rather snarky in my initial response, but really, that little plot point was the least of my problems with GEN. Ultimately, the movie seemed like a sad excuse to get the TNG crew on screen and to kill off Kirk so TNG could finally have it all to itself. The movie criminally wasted the talent of Malcolm McDowell (Hollywood seems to have made a hobby of that, especially in the early 90s), foisted those insufferable klingon sisters on us one... more... time! and rushed through what should have been major plot points (the E-D's destruction, Data's emotion chip, Kirk's freakin' DEATH) in listless and perfunctory fashion. By contrast, FC made little sense and the Borg Queen conceptually ruined the Borg (though, as played by Alice Krige, she was captivating in a way no TNG villain has approached) but it was entertaining as hell, like a Brosnan Bond movie. GEN barely approached Dalton quality.

FC was a bone to the fans who want excitment. Generations was a great tale about how we all deal with time and our progression through it, how we live our lives because of it...far more deeper than a horny Borg Queen who, in one swoop, ruined the Borg...IMO

Rob

 

[Gagarin]

It's a good thing Kirk and company ended up in the 20th century in STIV; otherwise, there wouldn't have been any nuclear wessels for repairing the Bird of Prey's engines.

That was lucky for them - they didn't know it would drain the crystals.

BUT ---- what they did know is they needed something to build that tank. If they went to the 1800's or 1500's - there would be no equivalent, and Scott couldn't manufacture transparent aluminum on the BoP.

And going back farther may have taken more power and speed than they could, who knows.

 

[cardinal biggles]

All those things were taken into account. From the script:

KIRK: What is our target in time?

SPOCK: The late 20th Century.

KIRK: Surely you can be more specific...

SPOCK: Not with this equipment. I have had to program some of the variables from memory.

KIRK: What are the variables...?

SPOCK: Availability of fuel components; mass of the vessel through a time
continuum, and the probable location of Humpbacks, in this case, the
Pacific basin.

 

[Tom]

Generations has to be one on Picard's worse days(s) ever.

- finds out his brother and nephew died in a fire (not a pleasant way to go either , mind you)

- Lets Soran blow up the Amagosa sun right under his nose then has a Bird of Prey just waltz in and take Soran and his chief engineer away.

- Walks into a 50 gigawatt force field

- Fails to talk soran out of his plan then fails to stop him.

- Gets 230 million people on Veridian 4 and his own crew killed (although at the time he did not now his crew was on the planet), which was reversed obviously but still..

- Interupts Kirk from enjoying his life in the Nexus.

- Rescues one of Starfleets greatest heros (Kirk) on to have have him get killed! Whereas Kirk could have just live peacefully in the Nexus!

- Finds out (probably from the shuttle pilot) that his beloved ship has been destroyed by a 20 year old Bird of Prey!!

Then at the end of the film after all that he seems upbeat, talking about time is a companion etc.. and says with relative certainty there will be another Enterpise (unless he knew somehow that the soverign class ship that was being built would be the next Enterprise, hmm another question for another day!). I would have loved to have seen the look on Picards face when found out about his wrecked ship! i'm sure at that point he is asking him why he did not back in time further and just arrest Soran on the Enterprise!

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Picard's imagined reaction... "WHAT THE BLOODY HELL?! COMMANDER, I LEAVE YOU FOR HALF AN HOUR AND THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS!"
"Sir...Deanna was driving..."
"WHO TOLD HER TO TAKE THE DAMN HELM?!"

 

[Tom]

And two movies later in Inserrection, Riker is in command of the Enterprise again and it gets an ass kicking and loss of it Warp Core. That must have been a long ride at Impulse to the next Star Base (unless they got towed) ..

 

[Nebusj]

Picard's imagined reaction... "WHAT THE BLOODY HELL?! COMMANDER, I LEAVE YOU FOR HALF AN HOUR AND THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS!"

``Hey, you knew I had that whole `losing-to-Pakleds' problem when you left me in charge.''

 

[Supervisor 194]

Generations was a great tale about how we all deal with time and our progression through it, how we live our lives because of it...

Rob

I'd argue that what you've described is what Generations wanted to be about, but that it never really materialized in the film itself unfortunately. Besides, Kirk got the lamest death ever for a character of his stature--even Moore and Braga admit today that instead of trying to circumvent expectations re: Kirk's death, they instead should have tried to live up to them.