General Trek Questions and Observations

[Richard S. Ta]

It’s a load of bollocks, basically.

I mean if the idea is that good writing takes time…

Lord of the Rings took 30 years.

Fahrenheit 451 took 18 days.

Both classics.

 

[Shawnster]

You're describing a sub-genre of science fiction called Hard SF. It tends to be dry, and often unreadable. Hard SF fans are kind of like penitents of the genre. I'm not sure they actually enjoy the field, unless seeing Stephen Baxter bumble around for 1000 pages trying to come up with a different emote than "Shrug" is interesting, as much as they enjoy holding its banner.

I don't know if I fully agree with this. It can be dry, yes, but doesn’t have to be.

Maybe it's degrees of hard SF? CJ Cherryh writes great science fiction. Is she hard scifi? I'm not recalling much if any fantasy elements in her Alliance/Union series or her Foreigner series.

Same with The Expanse. Now, I'm only limited to watching the TV series, but it was pretty hard science fiction. I don't find The Expanse dry.

On the other hand.... The technobabble in Trek can get unwieldy and out of control. I'll actually go so far as to say it definitely contradicts Gene's vision by violatin his "show, don't tell" rule. In the TOS writer's guide Gene said something like "Sheriff Matt Dillon doesn't explain how his 6 shooter works. He just pulls it out and uses it." Technobabble explains how it works. I've seen this "sin" in police procedurals where they constantly explain their job to each other, even co-workers in the same department. The explanation is clearly for the TV audience because it's quit dumb to explain your job to the co-worker who can do the same thing you do.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Same with The Expanse. Now, I'm only limited to watching the TV series, but it was pretty hard science fiction. I don't find The Expanse dry.

The Expanse cleverly wears a cloak of hard science-fiction whilst telling a story about a stargate containing an infinity of stargates somewhere past the outer planets of our solar system.

It’s harder than Trek for sure, but it plays fast and loose with science. Worms eaten out all the jelly in your eyes? No worries, it’ll grow back! ;-)

For All Mankind is an (entertaining) example of the genre.

 

[knightgrace]

Hmmm. Computers have reached the level of M-5 Multitronic unit. You missed that didn't you...

Turns out that a wrist bracelet, with electrodes can read an eeg. That when combined with a personality test (the more questions the better) can be functionally equivalent to a M-5...

The space warp has seen first light happened a couple of years ago.

Woman serve as Captains of ships... shocking I know to think that you missed that happening...

Wrist band communicators are a thing.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Hmmm. Computers have reached the level of M-5 Multitronic unit. You missed that didn't you...

Turns out that a wrist bracelet, with electrodes can read an eeg. That when combined with a personality test (the more questions the better) can be functionally equivalent to a M-5...

The space warp has seen first light happened a couple of years ago.

Woman serve as Captains of ships... shocking I know to think that you missed that happening...

Wrist band communicators are a thing.

Proving what exactly? That on occasion science fiction "predicts" technology? Yeah that's part of its "thing". Doesn't make Star Trek "hard SF". Nor does it require Star Trek be overly detailed about filters and sensors.

 

[Shawnster]

The Expanse cleverly wears a cloak of hard science-fiction whilst telling a story about a stargate containing an infinity of stargates somewhere past the outer planets of our solar system.

While true, the hard SF setting still doesn't detract from a good story. Lose the stargate fantasy and you still have a gripping story about the belters vying for independence. Even the murder mystery could have made a great story in it's own right.

Plenty of good story opportunities exist in that hard SF setting.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

While true, the hard SF setting still doesn't detract from a good story. Lose the stargate fantasy and you still have a gripping story about the belters vying for independence. Even the murder mystery could have made a great story in it's own right.

Plenty of good story opportunities exist in that hard SF setting.

Absolutely agreed. I took issue with the original post you quoted on the subject. Hard sci-fi can be very entertaining.

It’s all about the characters.

Silo is another good example of the genre being entertaining.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Was interested enough to do a little reading on how hard sci-fi is defined and what are considered to be examples of the genre.

Some movies:

2001: A Space Odyssey
Silent Running
Blade Runner
The Abyss
Gataca
Moon
Gravity
Interstellar
The Martian
Ad Astra

What you may think of individual movies on that list may vary, but I also think it’s difficult to look at said list and conclude that hard science-fiction is a bunch of boring old dry sticks and dust.

 

[XCV330]

The point was that there was no portage mentioned.

It wasn't mentioned because it didn't need to be mentioned. Before It would have been understood by readers of the time. Navigation impediments in that area are why the Welland Canal on the Canadian side was built a few years later. In the meantime there was portage.

Do you count the gas station breaks in in a modern novel to make sure enough that road trips are accurate to your level of comprehension? Was James Joyce really accurate when he had Bloom wipe his ass with only half a newspaper story in Ulysses? Immersion broken, totally unreadable.

 

[Shawnster]

Do you count the gas station breaks in in a modern novel to make sure enough that road trips are accurate to your level of comprehension?

Actually, if the book has a map or description of a real place, especially a place I'm familiar with, I compare the description with maps.

Neal Stephenson has a novel set in a city along US highway 30 (or was it 50?). Since I'm familiar with the highway, I looked it up. I was disappointed to find the location was fictional.

On the other hand, Rudy Rucker's Wetware novel is set (in part) in Louisville, KY. His description was so accurate at one point I could see every building along that road.

 

[fireproof78]

Seems like the inspiration behind Penn and Teller's "Desert Bus" game:

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[XCV330]

Actually, if the book has a map or description of a real place, especially a place I'm familiar with, I compare the description with maps.

Neal Stephenson has a novel set in a city along US highway 30 (or was it 50?). Since I'm familiar with the highway, I looked it up. I was disappointed to find the location was fictional.

On the other hand, Rudy Rucker's Wetware novel is set (in part) in Louisville, KY. His description was so accurate at one point I could see every building along that road.

ok

 

[knightgrace]

Research, research, and still more research.

Do your homework first. Then an outline. Then an outline/story-work-progress-multiple-revisions, then the full up story, then polish.

 

[XCV330]

Research, research, and still more research.

Do your homework first. Then an outline. Then an outline/story-work-progress-multiple-revisions, then the full up story, then polish.

after which write for human beings and not hyperfocused threadcounters.

 

[knightgrace]

Human beings???????

How shocking, just because they pay the bills????

How electrifying.

And no, I don't post just to post.

 

[Firebird]

Research, research, and still more research.

Too much research and not enough actual writing isn’t a good thing.

“Analysis paralysis” is something I encounter with a lot of inexperienced and young engineers in my field.

 

[fireproof78]

Too much research and not enough actual writing isn’t a good thing.

“Analysis paralysis” is something I encounter with a lot of inexperienced and young engineers in my field.

Literally why I gave up on writing. My wife was able to overcome it.

after which write for human beings and not hyperfocused threadcounters.

Yes, art is for humans rather than exacting rules and regulations.

 

[knightgrace]

Yet, an adult is expected to have certain education levels. At the minimum a twelfth grade actual education.

Not! A third grade. Nor a fifth grade, but an actual twelfth grade. Yes, I know that some people advocate limiting education to the two lesser grades. After all there should only be peasants...

What am saying is that a properly educated adult, is going to have the right to expect a certain quality of writing. This is a must.

Now keep in mind that most people in the United States, have some college - still others have a great deal of college.

Star Trek, was conceived as being for brainy fifteen year old boys. Not the opposite. This means that we are talking about gifted individuals at the very least testing above the average individual...

This places certain obligations upon the writing staff.

That is they have to know the material.

Because we aren't talking 'Dick and Jane' here.

This was a major handicap for Star Trek: Voyager. B&B didn't know the material, and as such were about as informed as the creators of 'The Star Lost'.

 

[Firebird]

Yet, an adult is expected to have certain education levels. At the minimum a twelfth grade actual education.

Not! A third grade. Nor a fifth grade, but an actual twelfth grade. Yes, I know that some people advocate limiting education to the two lesser grades. After all there should only be peasants...

What am saying is that a properly educated adult, is going to have the right to expect a certain quality of writing. This is a must.

Now keep in mind that most people in the United States, have some college - still others have a great deal of college.

Star Trek, was conceived as being for brainy fifteen year old boys. Not the opposite. This means that we are talking about gifted individuals at the very least testing above the average individual...

This places certain obligations upon the writing staff.

That is they have to know the material.

Because we aren't talking 'Dick and Jane' here.

This was a major handicap for Star Trek: Voyager. B&B didn't know the material, and as such were about as informed as the creators of 'The Star Lost'.

I don't even know what you're arguing for or against any longer.

 

[fireproof78]

Star Trek, was conceived as being for brainy fifteen year old boys.

It was? I thought it was conceived to entertain as broad an audience as possible and that was part of it's appeal. It wasn't just for one segment of the population.

What am saying is that a properly educated adult, is going to have the right to expect a certain quality of writing. This is a must.

Please define quality writing especially regarding Star Trek. It's an interesting thought experiment on what's expected and that properly educated people make these determinations of quality.