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Spoilers General Disco Chat Thread

The process of being creative in and of itself isn't a democracy. However, afterwards, said product is a democracy in so far as if it doesn't do enough business or isn't received well enough, then it comes to an end if it's being produced for mass media.

A fan can put out good material, look at Ron Moore. A fan can put out bad material, look at John Logan.

If Ron Moore wasn't given a shot on Trek, just because he was a fan, we would've missed out on several good episodes of TNG and DS9, the re-imagined BSG wouldn't be the same, and we'd be deprived of For All Mankind. If you haven't seen FAMK, then I highly recommend it. But anyway...

Harve Bennett watched all 80 episodes of TOS before making TWOK. He wasn't a fan, but he familiarized himself with Star Trek. And, yes, I would say that he became a fan in the process. Far harder to do when there are over 800 episodes. But, if someone becomes familiar enough, they can get by.

I don't mind the idea of a fan as an advisor. Someone who knows enough and can answer questions when asked. I don't mind a fan being in a charge either, as long as they view themselves as a writer first.

As far as premises: VOY sounded more exciting to me, but I ended up liking DS9 better. I liked the way PIC S1 continued things, but I also liked the way PIC S3 continued things. I liked early-DSC but I also liked Michelle Paradise's take.

Nick Meyer himself: Working with an entire writing staff is quite a bit different than writing a script on your own in 12 days based off other people's already-written scripts like he did with TWOK. It's also different from writing with only one other collaborator like he did with Harve Bennett on TVH and with Leonard Nimoy on TUC. He had to work with how many other people there were in the writing staff of DSC and, if that's not how you're accustomed to working, it can seem like too many cooks in the kitchen. And if they all have a different idea than you do, it's easy to feel out-numbered.

From the sound of it, it seems to me like Nick Meyer wasn't a good fit for the DSC Writing Staff because not only was he looking at Star Trek from a different angle than everyone else, but because the level of collaborating wasn't what he was used to. My takeaway is he was out of his element, and he wasn't on the same page. It happens.

Regardless of how things went, I can see some DNA of Nick Meyer's ideas in "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars" because those episodes depict a No-Win Scenario where T'Kuvma wants war with the Federation no matter what. Anything Georgiou, Burnham, or the Admiral would've tried would've ended the same. If it wasn't one thing, it would've been something else. Kobayashi Maru. It's a test of character and Burnham has to pay the price and atone for the rest of the season. Loosely, the pilot of DSC is also a bookend to TUC. In the former, the hostilities with the Klingons begin in earnest. In the latter, they end. In both, the Klingons are worried about the annihilation of their culture.
 
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The process of being creative in and of itself isn't a democracy. However, afterwards, said product is a democracy in so far as if it doesn't do enough business or isn't received well enough, then it comes to an end if it's being produced for mass media.

A fan can put out good material, look at Ron Moore. A fan can put out bad material, look at John Logan.

If Ron Moore wasn't given a shot on Trek, just because he was a fan, we would've missed out on several good episodes of TNG and DS9, the re-imagined BSG wouldn't be the same, and we'd be deprived of For All Mankind. If you haven't seen FAMK, then I highly recommend it. But anyway...

Harve Bennett watched all 80 episodes of TOS before making TWOK. He wasn't a fan, but he familiarized himself with Star Trek. And, yes, I would say that he became a fan in the process. Far harder to do when there are over 800 episodes. But, if someone becomes familiar enough, they can get by.

I don't mind the idea of a fan as an advisor. Someone who knows enough and can answer questions when asked. I don't mind a fan being in a charge either, as long as they view themselves as a writer first.

As far as premises: VOY sounded more exciting to me, but I ended up liking DS9 better. I like the way PIC S1 continued things, but I also liked the way PIC S3 continued things. I liked early-DSC but I also liked Michelle Paradise's take.

Nick Meyer himself: Working with an entire writing staff is quite a bit different than writing a script on your own in 12 days based off other people's already-written scripts like he did with TWOK. It's also different from writing with one other collaborator like he did with Harve Bennett on TVH and with Leonard Nimoy on TUC. He had to work with how many other people there were in the writing staff of DSC and, if that's not how you're accustomed to working, it can seem like too many cooks in the kitchen. And if they all have a different idea than you do, it's easy to feel out-numbered.

From the sound of it, it seems to me like Nick Meyer wasn't a good fit for the DSC Writing Staff because not only was he looking at Star Trek from a different angle than everyone else, but because the level of collaborating wasn't what he was used to. My takeaway is he was out of his element, and he wasn't on the same page. It happens.

Regardless of how things went, I can see some DNA of Nick Meyer's ideas in "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars" because those episodes depict a No-Win Scenario where T'Kuvma wants war with the Federation no matter what. Anything Georgiou, Burnham, or the Admiral would've tried would've ended the same. If it wasn't one thing, it would've been something else. Kobayashi Maru. Loosely, the pilot of DSC is also a bookend to TUC. In the former, the hostilities with the Klingons begin in earnest. In the latter, they end.
That's the first time I've ever considered that, but it makes so much sense in hindsight.
 
Yeah, if a show is being written by a room of writers it's a real benefit to have writers there who don't know any of the Star Trek stuff and can look at stories more objectively. They can ask questions about things other people take for granted, they can tell the others if their stories resonate without the benefit of knowing the lore, and so on.
 
The problem is some fans can only write fanfiction. A writers team should have a balance of the knowledgable and passionate and the "no men" who can reign them back.
Indeed. Fans will hesitate to "kill their darlings" and makes for poor drama. Recall, or read about, Nimoy s decision to kill off Spock and how fans reacted. Would people say that was a poor story decision? That Spock shouldn't have died? Perhaps Saavik would do better, like Tomlinson in Balance of Terror; the Spock could deliver the eulogy.

I get the fan passion but it is blinders too and needs a balance of perspective.
 
Indeed. Fans will hesitate to "kill their darlings" and makes for poor drama. Recall, or read about, Nimoy s decision to kill off Spock and how fans reacted. Would people say that was a poor story decision? That Spock shouldn't have died? Perhaps Saavik would do better, like Tomlinson in Balance of Terror; the Spock could deliver the eulogy.

I get the fan passion but it is blinders too and needs a balance of perspective.
I recently wrote a fanfiction and was struck by the realization afterwards that I had killed off a canon character. I mean, I wouldn't call Sahar from Section 31 a "darling" or a "fan favorite" or a character with a huge following, and I had nothing against the fellow, but I was still kind of chuffed that I did that. But it fit the needs of the story, and that was all that really mattered.
 
Killing Spock was a tactical move. Harve Bennett knew Leonard Nimoy was fed up with Star Trek, so Harve Bennett tempted him back with a death scene. Killing Spock off so Leonard Nimoy wouldn't have to come back again. If all the nonsense that happened in the 1970s hadn't happened: his issues with the bloopers, the lawsuits over likeness, his being cut out of Phase II entirely, and the experience of making TMP, Leonard Nimoy wouldn't have wanted out.

Historically, characters were only killed off if an actor wanted out. In which case, it didn't matter who was writing, a decision had to be made. It was only because Harve Bennett and Leonard Nimoy both had a change of heart afterwards that TSFS happened. Nick Meyer on the other hand, stuck to his guns. At least for TSFS.

It was Ron Moore, a huge TOS Fan, who decided to kill off Kirk in GEN. In fairness, Kirk was already generally thought to be dead by the TNG Era, so he wanted to answer the question of "What happened to Kirk?" He explains this in William Shatner's 1994 book Star Trek Movie Memories.

Gene Roddenberry, of all people, was the one who was the most against Spock being killed off and the Enterprise being destroyed.

I can't say for absolute sure what I would've thought of Spock's death if I'd seen it in the theater in 1982 (and was older than three!) What I can say is that -- based on what I know of myself -- I believe that while I would've thought it was sad; I wouldn't have hated it because I would've thought it was done well. At the same time, I wouldn't have been against Spock coming back in 1984.

Anyone who doesn't think that was a good death scene is either a liar, in deep denial, or has their own issues with watching people die. Spock's death was one of the best-handled deaths in the franchise. But I also didn't have a problem with him returning. So, in turn, undoing worse-handled deaths isn't something I have a problem with either. It's science-fiction, coming back from the dead is part of the package. The one time I had an issue with it was actually an instance that happened outside of Star Trek. I don't agree with the way Starbuck returned in BSG. '00s BSG, in case someone tries to be a smart-ass.
 
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And I wish fans protected things! As much as I say we need fans in the writers' room to help them avoid treading on rakes, they did nothing to save Icheb's eye, or Hugh, or all of that grim darkness. Fans know all the obscure characters to bring back and kill. But fans also gave us Lower Decks and Prodigy, which understood how much emotional attachment we have to this stuff, and how it should be protected.
It seems both Kirsten Beyer and Jeri Ryan didn't get what they signed up for with "Stardust City Rag".
The process of being creative in and of itself isn't a democracy. However, afterwards, said product is a democracy in so far as if it doesn't do enough business or isn't received well enough, then it comes to an end if it's being produced for mass media.
You need something to be sufficiently popular and (hopefully) good to be sustainable on its own terms. And in bringing back niche franchises, you need to be squaring the circle of getting returning and new elements balanced.
A fan can put out good material, look at Ron Moore. A fan can put out bad material, look at John Logan.
TBF, that was early in Logan's career, and he had a lot of people above him in the process... Spiner, Stewart, Berman, the studio... and then the buzzsaw of Stuart Baird.

Logan almost did come back in 2023 with the proposed Janeway/Seven series that stalled out.
From the sound of it, it seems to me like Nick Meyer wasn't a good fit for the DSC Writing Staff because not only was he looking at Star Trek from a different angle than everyone else, but because the level of collaborating wasn't what he was used to. My takeaway is he was out of his element, and he wasn't on the same page. It happens.
From all appearances Nick Meyer was out at the same time Bryan Fuller was out. Meyer wrote the original teleplay for "Battle of the Binary Stars" (story was solely credited to Fuller based on the title page I've seen), whereas the aired episode has Berg and Harberts all over it with Meyer no where credited in sight.
 
If Ron Moore wasn't given a shot on Trek, just because he was a fan, we would've missed out on several good episodes of TNG and DS9, the re-imagined BSG wouldn't be the same, and we'd be deprived of For All Mankind. If you haven't seen FAMK, then I highly recommend it. But anyway...

It’s shows like FAMK that have been giving me more of a Star Trek fix than any actual Star Trek produced in the last 3-4 years. Brilliant show. One season builds on the next and it all makes sense.

There’s clearly an overarching plan for a multi-season show in the writers room. All things that a show like PIC could have learned from.
 
I doubt it was because he was a fan. More because what he wrote showed promise.
It was exactly because what he had showed promise. The idea on this board that "fans can't write", "fans shouldn't write", or "fans shouldn't be in charge" is a faulty premise that doesn't look at the full picture. It's only true up to the point of if a fan isn't a writer, then they shouldn't be writing it. if a fan is a writer though, then it's a different matter. He shouldn't have been turned away just because he was a fan, and he wasn't. Being a fan isn't an automatic disqualifier. He was a good writer who happened to be a fan. If you can write a good story, then it shouldn't matter if you're a fan.

If not for "The Bonding" being picked up, he would've chosen a very different career path because he was at a crossroads in his life.

It’s shows like FAMK that have been giving me more of a Star Trek fix than any actual Star Trek produced in the last 3-4 years. Brilliant show. One season builds on the next and it all makes sense.
I'm up to Season 4 Episode 9, I'll be posting my thoughts over in the ongoing SF&F thread soon. No specific timeframe, because I always get those off, but soon.
 
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It’s shows like FAMK that have been giving me more of a Star Trek fix than any actual Star Trek produced in the last 3-4 years. Brilliant show. One season builds on the next and it all makes sense.
Shifting this back to Discovery -- or New Trek in general -- yeah. Three or four years tracks for me as well. After Discovery Season 4 is my cut-off in general, if we want to get specific. Like I've said elsewhere here, I'm more of a Phase I of New Trek kind of guy. After that, I'll set aside Picard Season 3 and just agree to disagree with a lot of people here...

... but Discovery Season 5. I enjoyed it. I thought it was fun. But I haven't revisited it since last June. Almost a year. So, not a lot of staying power. It felt light weight as far as Discovery goes, and it definitely didn't feel like a last season. I don't think it was bad at all, but if they'd have known they were ending, I'm pretty sure the season would've been something else. The treasure hunt was fun, though.

And Rayner was great, I would've liked to have seen more of him if DSC had continued, but I know I'll get my Callum Keith Rennie fix whenever I finally get around to re-watching Battlestar Galactica.
 
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It’s shows like FAMK that have been giving me more of a Star Trek fix than any actual Star Trek produced in the last 3-4 years. Brilliant show. One season builds on the next and it all makes sense.
Same. And it lacks the baggage that comes with Star Trek too, reducing the need to argue.

As a side note, real spaceflight is infinitely more interesting and cooler than sci-fi for me, so any fiction that sticks close to it goes straight to the top of the pile.
 
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