Spoilers General Disco Chat Thread

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Lord Garth, Jul 6, 2018.

  1. Gingerbread Demon

    Gingerbread Demon Stealer of all the cookies in time and space Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Location:
    Gingerbread Demon
    I watched that again so much fun. Thank you for posting that.

    Star Trek Discovery Season 6 "No more crying" :)
     
  2. Richard S. Ta

    Richard S. Ta Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2021
    Location:
    Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
    I watched episode 2 of Season 4 for the first time and I'd like some clarification. I'm trying to do a count of exactly how many minutes this season characters spend talking about feelings in the middle of a crisis. Just really for some data points when people claim it's 'constant' or 'every episode'.

    It's not every episode, because episode 1 had none, but I wonder what it is people are defining this problem as, because there are a few instances and they all involve Book, but they are all different.

    1) Early in the episode, Michael tries to talk to Book to understand his feelings. The crisis with the anomaly is light years distant, presented as something abstract. This, I think is drastically acceptable and surely no-one has a problem with this kind of scene?

    I would give this scene a pass and not add it to the tally.

    2) The second is different. Holo-Stamets opens his heart when Book is struggling to control his ship/trying to escape the gravitational anomaly. Stamets chooses this exact moment to express how Book's ability to control the spore drive made him feel inadequate, how he couldn't protect his family, Book made him feel worthless... I wanted to punch him as much as Book did. Dude, seriously, WTF?

    I kind fo see how this is something that could stretch a viewers belief. I don't consider myself to be a Discovery hater by any means, but in this instance, as Book I'd turn to Stamets and say "Now? Fucking seriously? You want to talk about this right now?". Here, I see the problem people have. I understand. It's still not constant or every episode, but I get it.

    I would not give this scene a pass. I believe it should be added to the tally.

    3) The third. Book loses his shit and Michael opens a private channel with him to talk it out. Now, on the surface this is similar to the scene above, except here it feels a) more fitting given that Michael and Book have a relationship and b) more relevant given that Book had basically lost his shit at that point and needed his love to pull him out of a hole.

    It's the classic 'talk the person down from jumping off the building scene' and feels relevant and natural and relates directly to the tragedy Book has suffered as well as picking up earlier threads in the episode about Book going through grief. Even though this scene is as guilty of the same things as the previous mentioned, I still feel that it works because of who Book and Burnham are. The Stamets stuff, possibly intentionally, was awkward.

    However, I am not sure if this scene passes or fails.

    So, someone give me a rundown. I think it's fair to have a problem with the Stamets scene, because I can see what the problem is, but the other two, despite technically being 'talking about feelings in the middle of a crisis' seem both dramatically and thematically earned.

    Thoughts?

    EDITED TO ADD

    I thought E02 was good, but lacked the punch of E01.
     
    Commander Troi likes this.
  3. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Location:
    The Wormhole
    While the claims that the character go on about their feelings "in every episode" are of course exaggerated, there is an odd habit in this show to take a break during a time sensitive crisis so that everyone can have a heart to heart. I don't really remember this episode too well, but the Stamets/Book scene you cover in Point 2 is exactly the sort of thing that gets to me about Disco's emotional moments. Though I think one of the worse examples of this in the fourth season comes in the episode titled Stormy Weather. Without going into too much details because Spoilers, there's a point in that episode where the characters literally need to complete a certain task or face imminent death, and they choose to instead spend time chatting about their feelings.

    Now I get the argument that these are normal human beings who have emotions and that other Trek shows, particularly the Berman era could be even less emotional than a Vulcan Kohlinar master. But at the same time there is a time and place to express emotions, and the middle of a time sensitive crisis where the alternative to success is death and destruction is not it.
     
  4. Richard S. Ta

    Richard S. Ta Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2021
    Location:
    Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
    I get all of that and agree. Like I said, three instances above, two of which are fine to me but the Holo-Stamets thing was daft.

    I think rather than time by the minute then, then I’ll just have to note specific scenes as I go through.

    Still, that’s two episodes. In one no one cried and no one talked about feelings in the middle of a crisis so that’s the whole ‘every episode’ thing put to bed. Also one short scene in two episodes similarly dispels ‘constantly’ in regards to the ‘feelings in a crisis’ thing.
     
  5. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    My issue with the "feelings" thing in Season 4 isn't that characters are touchy-feely and willing to ignore a crisis at the drop of a hat to have a heart to heart. My issue is that ALL OF THE CHARACTERS ARE BASICALLY THE SAME!!! Everyone is kinda damaged, but at the same time really willing to open up to their coworkers for a heart-to-heart. And everyone is in turn willing to be a shoulder to cry on/a perfect supportive ally. The few characters which used to have somewhat rough edges either had them sanded down (like Stamets) or left the show (like Georgiou). As a result, every single conversation about feelings between two people seems completely interchangeable - as if any two random characters could have a heart-to-heart with nearly identical content.

    I'm not going to say that the characters don't have flaws - of course they do. But they're all flawed in basically the same way. Where are the stoic/repressed people like say Worf or O'Brien - people who just muddle through their misery? Where are the self-absorbed characters like Raffi that want others to deal with their shit, but don't really have time to reciprocate? I just want one character who can say something like "sorry, I don't have time for your shit."

    Honestly, the way Season 4 (and to a lesser extent Season 3) were written, it kinda made me wonder if all the characters unintentionally came out as thinly veiled author avatars of Michelle Paradise.
     
  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    USS TITAN-A
    Strikes me as pretty much how shows and films are written nowadays.

    They evolved past it.
     
  7. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    A type 13 planet in it's final stage
    The episode with Tilly and the cadets is worst for it, it was hilarious seeing the giant ice monsters pause their approach for the crew to have a little therapy session.

    It's become an ongoing gag, almost. Part of the show since the S2 finale (Michael and Spock's "last advice" chat while ships are exploding and people are dying all around and the end of the carnage hinges entirely on Michael's launch) and it'll probably be there until the end.
     
    Richard S. Ta likes this.
  8. Visitor1982

    Visitor1982 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2004
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    My feeling is Michelle Paradise is responsible for these awkward touchy feely scenes during very inappropriate moments.
     
  9. Gingerbread Demon

    Gingerbread Demon Stealer of all the cookies in time and space Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Location:
    Gingerbread Demon
    Is she that kind of writer / producer?
     
  10. Visitor1982

    Visitor1982 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2004
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Well, it more or less started when she entered the picture. I really like Paradise, she seems very nice, but I don't think the direction the show took when she took over has been the right one. But maybe that's just me.
     
  11. Gingerbread Demon

    Gingerbread Demon Stealer of all the cookies in time and space Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Location:
    Gingerbread Demon
    That's interesting. Different producers bring with them their own personal biases and tastes and maybe this is hers
     
  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    USS TITAN-A
    I think it's more of a 2020 thing, and actually more of an approach that started back in 2001.
    A similar thing happens in Spider-man (around 3 minutes in the below clip).
     
    Richard S. Ta likes this.
  13. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
  14. Richard S. Ta

    Richard S. Ta Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2021
    Location:
    Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
    Alright, so I watched Choose to Live and I thought it was the best of the season so far.

    I think the Grey plot is heavy handed and overly saccharine, but that's the only gripe I have. It doesn't help that I don't like either of characters or the actors that play them... but it's resolved now so that's that.

    Other than that... Well, they are making really good use of the new AR wall. Some beautiful environments.

    It get's on my nerves when people say that entire seasons of DSC are geared toward the series arc and lack standalone episodes. When they say that, it means they don't actually watch it, because this episode stands alone and it stands alone well.

    I like that they can use Book's ship for short trips, leaving Discovery behind and I liked seeing another 32nd century ship.

    I love that it's such a toughie to even get a handle on what the DMA is. That makes it mysterious. Even the Vulcans don't know. What is it?

    There's no talking in the middle of a crisis, but Book does cry a bit. I think I can forgive Book for crying a bit at this point though.

    A really good one then.

    So:

    E01:

    Crying: None
    Heart to heart in a crisis: None

    E02:

    Crying: Book, a bit and Michael in response.
    Heart to heart in a crisis: Book and Holo-Stamets

    E03:

    Crying: Book, a bit. Stoic tears.
    Heart to heart in a crisis: None
     
    fireproof78 likes this.
  15. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2020
    We'll see after S5. Since she and the rest of the show had to course correct and set the show in the 32nd century and do some worldbuilding all over again. And now that they've acknowledged that the rebuilding the Federation arc is done we will be able to see their vision for Discovery in the 32nd century unfold.
     
    Commander Troi likes this.
  16. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
  17. Richard S. Ta

    Richard S. Ta Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2021
    Location:
    Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
    Watched All is Possible. I liked most of it. A few thoughts.

    Good to see Kovich.

    Adira and Grey are a bit more interesting now they aren't glued to each other. I liked both this episode and I've never been a fan before.

    The 'rebuilding the Federation' subplot is really good. Ni'var and the politicking and whatnot.

    Wilson Cruz is a treasure. I like the actor a lot and I think the warmth and humanity he brings to Culber is beautiful. He shines every time he's on screen. The material between him and Book was wonderful stuff.

    Likewise Doug Jones.

    Tilly... I stand in a minority because I know many love her, but I'm glad she's being sort of shuffled off. I haven't liked the character since Season 1 and for me she has degenerated over the course of the show. But yeah, I know I won't make many friends with that so I'll leave that there.

    Unfortunately another instance of egregious in-crisis therapy. I found some connection with the idea of dealing with young people who have stunted social skills due to extended periods in isolation in my own work as a university lecturer. That's exactly what we are seeing now countrywide in Vietnam. I sort of liked it when the cadets were hashing out their bullshit while in the shuttle, but later some monsters seemed to lose interest in eating them entirely so they could stand in a circle and hold hands.

    Good episode overall though. I continue to be wowed by the general design of everything which manages to stand alone as it's own thing whilst still being Star Trek.

    So:

    E01:

    Crying: None.
    Heart to heart in a crisis: None.

    E02:

    Crying: Book, a bit and Michael in response.
    Heart to heart in a crisis: Book and Holo-Stamets.

    E03:

    Crying: Book, a bit. Stoic tears.
    Heart to heart in a crisis: None.

    E04:

    Crying: None.
    Heart to heart in a crisis: Tilly and the Cadets freeze ice monsters in their tracks so they can talk about the Orion kids' father.

    So the two instances of crisis-chat so far are silly, but still hardly qualify as 'constantly' and certainly not 'every episode'. From four episodes so far there are two instances which really stand out. As for crying, I don't think I've seen any more in this season than I would any other show.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2022
    fireproof78 likes this.
  18. Gingerbread Demon

    Gingerbread Demon Stealer of all the cookies in time and space Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Location:
    Gingerbread Demon
    Wasn't there a story going around that Kovich was secretly President, or was that just fans wanting it to be true?
     
  19. Richard S. Ta

    Richard S. Ta Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2021
    Location:
    Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
    I don’t know anything about that. Mad to have David Cronenberg as a regular guest in Star Trek though.
     
  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    USS TITAN-A
    Wishful thinking.
     
    Commander Troi likes this.