Garrett Wang

[fireproof78]

Great characters who deserved better that just being destroyed.

This is probably were you and I are completely separate. I don't think characters deserve anything. They're fictional. They cannot be destroyed because I get to decide what stories to partake in. They are subject to the whims of the writer and that's it.

 

[Oddish]

Well, it could be worse still. At least his fate is still open for future series. They could have made a passing reference to him as 'one of those rare cases that never got a promotion despite serving over 30 years as Ensign before he died in xxx battle', sealing his canon fate for good.

True... but I can't see that happening on a "serious" show like PIC. Harry was considered an excellent officer, so it's reasonable that he would rank up. If he were featured on Picard or Legacy, he would likely have been putting on lieutenant's pips within days of Voyager's return. Or hours. Or even minutes, as Una McCormack suggested.

They could have done it on "Lower Decks", but not with that timeframe, since it was set only two years after Voyager's return. But yes, they could have had him not get promoted due to a bureaucratic error, and have it resolved the day after he dies. Given that Boimler was randomly demoted in Season 2 and that poor sap in engineering had a promotion snatched away by Rutherford in Season 4, such a nasty joke would be par for the course for them.

This is probably were you and I are completely separate. I don't think characters deserve anything. They're fictional. They cannot be destroyed because I get to decide what stories to partake in. They are subject to the whims of the writer and that's it.

Maybe. But a professional writer in a series that is published or shown has an obligation to please his/her audience. And assassinating characters for no good reason doesn't do that.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe. But a professional writer in a series that is published or shown has an obligation to please his/her audience. And assassinating characters for no good reason doesn't do that.

Then I ignore it. It doesn't ruin or destroy or assassinate anything in other works.

 

[Lynx]

This is probably were you and I are completely separate. I don't think characters deserve anything. They're fictional. They cannot be destroyed because I get to decide what stories to partake in. They are subject to the whims of the writer and that's it.

I think that they deserve to remain as they are for the entertainment of many people, especially when it's about people who watch the shows and buy the books. Therefore I don't understand those writers who destoy certain characters just for their own pleasure. What if people stop watching the show or stop buying the books. Those writers may end up at some hamburger joint, serving burgers instead of writing.

Maybe. But a professional writer in a series that is published or shown has an obligation to please his/her audience. And assassinating characters for no good reason doesn't do that.

Exactly my point too.

Then I ignore it. It doesn't ruin or destroy or assassinate anything in other works.

But if all those "other works" are adapted to the destruction of a character?

I haven't found one single book or episode (except for my own stories) where an appearance of Kes isn't hampered with the mumbo-jumbo in the episode The Gift or the total destruction of the character in that episode in season 6.

Well, it could be worse still. At least his fate is still open for future series. They could have made a passing reference to him as 'one of those rare cases that never got a promotion despite serving over 30 years as Ensign before he died in xxx battle', sealing his canon fate for good.

That could be possible.
If we look at the books, Harry is actually better treated so far than many of the ruined Trek characters which I've mentioned in many posts.

He gets promoted in pretty much every post-VOY media he appears in. Problem is, he's only appeared in non canon media, which means his official rank remains ensign. And with Picard over, LD ending, and PRO's fate very up in the air (Netflix agreed to air the already-made second season, but there's no indication that they'll order any more), that might not change. Sadly, the people who ridicule him as the Forever Ensign may well get their wish.

That is a problem, I agree on that.

But considering the fact that those in charge of Star Trek obviously are finishing off everything which has to do with the 24th century or so and that the horrible DSC is about to set the standard for upcoming series and movies, then the "non-canon" media is the only thing left for us.

But there's always the risk that he will be "eliminated" or turned into an uninteresting "has-been" in some book, despite a promotion or not.

 

[at Quark's]

Maybe. But a professional writer in a series that is published or shown has an obligation to please his/her audience. And assassinating characters for no good reason doesn't do that.

I'm not sure about the 'pleasing' part. In most instances, yes. But sometimes, a good writer can force (or at least invite) you to think about issues too by different means. If need be, by shocking you.

 

[fireproof78]

I think that they deserve to remain as they are for the entertainment of many people

I do not.

What if people stop watching the show or stop buying the books. Those writers may end up at some hamburger joint, serving burgers instead of writing.

Cest la vie.

I haven't found one single book or episode (except for my own stories) where an appearance of Kes isn't hampered with the mumbo-jumbo in the episode The Gift or the total destruction of the character in that episode in season 6.

Then, if I considered that destruction, I would ignore it.

 

[Oddish]

I haven't found one single book or episode (except for my own stories) where an appearance of Kes isn't hampered with the mumbo-jumbo in the episode The Gift or the total destruction of the character in that episode in season 6.

Sadly, the organization that handles the books probably doesn't encourage AU stories. And because "The Gift" and the abomination that ruined it (sorry, @Lynx , but I was Ok with "The Gift" as an exit for Kes, though I would have preferred them keeping her) are canon, they're kind of stuck with it. Even if a writer thought Harry's seven years as an ensign was BS, they could not undo it any earlier than right after Janeway's last "set a course for home".

If we look at the books, Harry is actually better treated so far than many of the ruined Trek characters which I've mentioned in many posts.

No surprise. Since the showrunners developed him so little, he's got to be one of the easiest characters to write for.

But there's always the risk that he will be "eliminated" or turned into an uninteresting "has-been" in some book, despite a promotion or not.

Any character can be assassinated. Look at "Nightingale", which managed to crap on both Janeway and Harry.

I'm not sure about the 'pleasing' part.

"Please" might not be ideal. But you have to approve of the way the character was handled, regardless of the emotions it brings from you. "The Visitor" moved me to tears, "The Outcast" moved me to outrage, "Night Terrors" scared the crap out of me, and the final scene of "Menage a Troi" had me grinning like an idiot. But all were worthwhile in their own way.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm not sure about the 'pleasing' part. In most instances, yes. But sometimes, a good writer can force (or at least invite) you to think about issues too by different means. If need be, by shocking you.

Indeed, yes. I do not engage with material to be pleased or even approve. It might go the exact opposite way that I would expect but that doesn't make it bad, or more on topic, "destructive."

Destruction, to me, implies there is no redeeming quality to the story and that I cannot enjoy past stories because of what it did. I have not had that experience with many stories.

 

[Weyoun 251]

I think that they deserve to remain as they are for the entertainment of many people, especially when it's about people who watch the shows and buy the books. Therefore I don't understand those writers who destoy certain characters just for their own pleasure. What if people stop watching the show or stop buying the books. Those writers may end up at some hamburger joint, serving burgers instead of writing.



Exactly my point too.



But if all those "other works" are adapted to the destruction of a character?

I haven't found one single book or episode (except for my own stories) where an appearance of Kes isn't hampered with the mumbo-jumbo in the episode The Gift or the total destruction of the character in that episode in season 6.

That could be possible.
If we look at the books, Harry is actually better treated so far than many of the ruined Trek characters which I've mentioned in many posts.



That is a problem, I agree on that.

But considering the fact that those in charge of Star Trek obviously are finishing off everything which has to do with the 24th century or so and that the horrible DSC is about to set the standard for upcoming series and movies, then the "non-canon" media is the only thing left for us.

But there's always the risk that he will be "eliminated" or turned into an uninteresting "has-been" in some book, despite a promotion or not.

Aggghhhh - I both agree and disagree with your central point so much!!

Back when I were but a wee lad reading the Rogue Squadron series of Star Wars books I'd notice little changes in characterisation between the writers and then when I read the wider EU lit (Zahn triology and Yuzhan Vong) those changes became bigger - because at times I didn't "like" (wrong word for actual feelings bit close enough) I'd effectively selective memory it to get the bits of Wedge or Booster I wanted and ignore the rest.

This was back when they were considered canon too

You have the advantage of Trek Lit being non-canon so you can literally pick and choose which books to include and almost do a "tell your own story" approach by selecting which pathways to follow for certain characters.

On the flip side - I have contributed the square root of fuck all to the IP and whether I agree with decisions or not these people have so even if I don't like their choice I will still respect it.

My game these days is to spoiler myself for big films or shows and read a summary of it, create my own head canon of how it will play out on screen, then watch it and compare and I enjoy the analysis of where my mind went vs the creators - it also means anything I majorly don't like feels less negative as it has become a game and the fun is in playing "spot the difference" rather than wanting it to line up perfectly

 

[Oddish]

There are actually options for any of the six existing shows, plus Legacy and Academy, if they happen.

LD: What I already described. Or, they could do it Garrett Wang's way and have Harry resign from Starfleet in disgust, then create Admiral Kim's Bar and Grill. They could even do both: it would be a hilarious irony if Harry left Starfleet because he wasn't promoted, and only found out later on that his very generous rank boost was caught up in the bureaucracy.

PRO: Harry could be the operations officer on the Voyager A. Since it's almost the size of the Enterprise, it's a LCDR's berth. He could even be Janeway's XO; given that he was probably upped by two grades immediately upon returning, it's not too much of a stretch that he gains two more ranks in five years. Riker managed four in seven.

PIC/Legacy: Harry is captain of the Voyager B, as originally planned. Seems like a nice full circle to me.

SNW: This one would require some time travel shenanigans. Since we've had a "visitors from the future" crossover episode already, this might be a tough sell.

DIS/Academy: Garrett Wang could return as a character in Academy, and mention that yes, he was a descendant of the legendary Admiral Kim who led the rebuilding of the fleet following the Borg debacle of 2401. If Mulgrew can play Janeway's 350-year ancestor, Wang can be Kim's 800-year descendant. It's Star Trek, after all.

ST: Lots of possibilities here.

 

[Lynx]

Aggghhhh - I both agree and disagree with your central point so much!!

Back when I were but a wee lad reading the Rogue Squadron series of Star Wars books I'd notice little changes in characterisation between the writers and then when I read the wider EU lit (Zahn triology and Yuzhan Vong) those changes became bigger - because at times I didn't "like" (wrong word for actual feelings bit close enough) I'd effectively selective memory it to get the bits of Wedge or Booster I wanted and ignore the rest.

This was back when they were considered canon too

You have the advantage of Trek Lit being non-canon so you can literally pick and choose which books to include and almost do a "tell your own story" approach by selecting which pathways to follow for certain characters.

On the flip side - I have contributed the square root of fuck all to the IP and whether I agree with decisions or not these people have so even if I don't like their choice I will still respect it.

My game these days is to spoiler myself for big films or shows and read a summary of it, create my own head canon of how it will play out on screen, then watch it and compare and I enjoy the analysis of where my mind went vs the creators - it also means anything I majorly don't like feels less negative as it has become a game and the fun is in playing "spot the difference" rather than wanting it to line up perfectly

Unfortunately I haven't read any of the Rogue Squadron series of Star Wars so I don't know about the scenario you describe. But I understand the problem here.

You have a point when you describe "the advantage of TrekLit being non-canon and about pick and choose which books to include" but there is a problem.

There ar just too few books and few writers available and no one seems want to break a certain direction that the books may have taken.

If Garak is turned into a criminal, wimp an a loser in one book and then killed off, then he will be that in all books after that, except if the books are about a younger Garak before Deep Space Nine or something like that. He will still be labeled as a criiminal, wimp and loser who died in every other book.

The same with Kes. If she shows up in a book, her appearance will be based on that mumbo-jumbo in The Gift and the destruction in that episode in season 6. Those events will set the standard for a possible upcoming story.

If Chakotay is turned into an uninteresting no-no, let's say a garbage collector in one book, then he will be that in all coming books too, no matter who writes it. No one dares to break the circle (except me of course. I have restorded Kes in my stories and I will restore Garak and Gowron too).

The good side of it was actually Harry's fate. He was promoted in one book and now he seems to be a Lieutenant in all books.

 

[Oddish]

You have a point when you describe "the advantage of TrekLit being non-canon and about pick and choose which books to include" but there is a problem.

There ar just too few books and few writers available and no one seems want to break a certain direction that the books may have taken.

That's too bad, if indeed the case. TrekLit should be allowed to explore possibilities, not forced to follow its own interpretation of canon.

If Chakotay is turned into an uninteresting no-no, let's say a garbage collector in one book, then he will be that in all coming books too, no matter who writes it. No one dares to break the circle (except me of course. I have restorded Kes in my stories and I will restore Garak and Gowron too).

Fanfiction is a good way to right wrongs, isn't it? And given that the Voyager showrunners were sloppier than a four-year-old's finger-painting, there were a lot of wrongs to right!

The good side of it was actually Harry's fate. He was promoted in one book and now he seems to be a Lieutenant in all books.

I think that's because there seem to be three main schools of thought regarding Harry's rank status:

1. The ones who think it was just a joke, and get irritated with those of us who don't see the humor in it.

2. The ones who buy into the "explanations" given in Season 7 (there's very few senior officer slots on the ship, etc.) Yes, these arguments can be ripped to shreds easily, but not everyone bothers.

3. The ones who think Harry should have been promoted at some point. I don't think I need to tell you which camp I'm in.

A person writing a serious story is unlikely to base it on a joke, especially one that wasn't really that funny. Once Harry returns home, there will obviously be senior officer slots available. And obviously those in the third camp are going to have Harry's collar spawn more pips as soon as canon no longer applies to him.

While I have been periodically called out for talking too much on the subject, it's never been by people who actually believed that Harry truly deserved to be a forever ensign. Not even sure if they exist.

 

[Lynx]

That's too bad, if indeed the case. TrekLit should be allowed to explore possibilities, not forced to follow its own interpretation of canon.

I can agree on that, especially when it comes to events where characters are shoved aside or killed off for no reason at all.
I mean, there's no reason to waste a book on a story where, let's say Scotty is killed off decades after TNG ended, just like they did with Kirk in Geneations. Let us assume that Scotty lived a happy life and don't bother how long he lived after the TNG episode Relics. Why not concentrate on writing books about Scotty during the years he was active?
Of course that fits on other characters too.

Fanfiction is a good way to right wrongs, isn't it? And given that the Voyager showrunners were sloppier than a four-year-old's finger-painting, there were a lot of wrongs to right!

Oh yes, it is!
As for the constant wrongs of Voyager, I've made a page on the Kes Website about the most obvious of those. If I really want to nitpick, then I can come up with much more.

However, I must admit that I'm not sure about how I have treated Harry's rank in the stories I've made which takes place after Voyager got home. I must check that and correct if he still is an Ensign in those.
It had nothing to do with any bad feelings towards Harry, more that I just didn't think of it back then when I wrote those stories.

I think that's because there seem to be three main schools of thought regarding Harry's rank status:

1. The ones who think it was just a joke, and get irritated with those of us who don't see the humor in it.

2. The ones who buy into the "explanations" given in Season 7 (there's very few senior officer slots on the ship, etc.) Yes, these arguments can be ripped to shreds easily, but not everyone bothers.

3. The ones who think Harry should have been promoted at some point. I don't think I need to tell you which camp I'm in.

A person writing a serious story is unlikely to base it on a joke, especially one that wasn't really that funny. Once Harry returns home, there will obviously be senior officer slots available. And obviously those in the third camp are going to have Harry's collar spawn more pips as soon as canon no longer applies to him.

While I have been periodically called out for talking too much on the subject, it's never been by people who actually believed that Harry truly deserved to be a forever ensign. Not even sure if they exist.

I could never have believed that you were one of those in the third camp.

I must admit that I didn't think about it that much before, not because of any dislike of Harry but more because I just didn't really think about it. I wasn't even that sure about how the system with promotions worked.

But you have open my eyes on ths subject

 

[fireproof78]

I mean, there's no reason to waste a book on a story where, let's say Scotty is killed off decades after TNG ended

There could be. And it's in line with Gene's vision.

 

[Oddish]

I wasn't even that sure about how the system with promotions worked.

It works the way they writers want it to work. Geordi, Worf, Deanna, Sisko, Dax, Bashir, Tom, Tuvok, and all five Lower Desk ensigns got promoted without changing jobs. But this was apparently not possible with Data, Harry, or several other assorted ensigns (Wildman, Vorik, Livik, probably others).

 

[DonIago]

I think that's because there seem to be three main schools of thought regarding Harry's rank status:

1. The ones who think it was just a joke, and get irritated with those of us who don't see the humor in it.

2. The ones who buy into the "explanations" given in Season 7 (there's very few senior officer slots on the ship, etc.) Yes, these arguments can be ripped to shreds easily, but not everyone bothers.

3. The ones who think Harry should have been promoted at some point. I don't think I need to tell you which camp I'm in.

Sign me up for both #1 and #3. Harry obviously should have been promoted at some point. Depending on the mood I'm in and the context, I think it's a joke that he wasn't, but how much I think it was a joke in poor taste is a more variable question; I certainly think it was kind of awful the way they started inserting meta-commentary into the series. But taking personal umbrage over what happened with one character in one Trek series that I didn't even think was that good overall? Nah. I don't own these characters, and while I can and do disagree with how they were written, in the end it's just entertainment. Or, if you prefer, "entertainment". Life goes on, and Harry Kim's lack of promotion isn't something I want to let weigh me down.

 

[fireproof78]

It works the way they writers want it to work. Geordi, Worf, Deanna, Sisko, Dax, Bashir, Tom, Tuvok, and all five Lower Desk ensigns got promoted without changing jobs. But this was apparently not possible with Data, Harry, or several other assorted ensigns (Wildman, Vorik, Livik, probably others).

Indeed, yes. O'Brien notwithstanding, Geordi was promoted and moved departments, Worf also did. Sisko, and others got promoted and stayed in department.

It aren't that hard. If writers are pressed for ideas then look at promotion guidelines in a uniformed service, or government agency.

 

[Farscape One]

Indeed, yes. O'Brien notwithstanding, Geordi was promoted and moved departments, Worf also did. Sisko, and others got promoted and stayed in department.

It aren't that hard. If writers are pressed for ideas then look at promotion guidelines in a uniformed service, or government agency.

Actually, both Worf and Geordi were promoted while in the same department. LaForge went from full Lt. in season 2 as Chief Engineer to Lt. Cmdr. at the start of season 3, same position. Worf went from Lt. j.g. in season 2 as Security Chief to full Lt. in season 3 and also Lt. Cmdr. in GENERATIONS while still serving as Security Chief.

As for O'Brien, he was a part of Engineering on the Enterprise (Transporter Chief is still under that department) and he got promoted (position, anyway) to Chief of Operations for DS9 (clearly the station equivalent of starship Chief Engineer, which he said he was to 'Boone' in "TRIBUNAL").

 

[fireproof78]

As for O'Brien, he was a part of Engineering on the Enterprise (Transporter Chief is still under that department) and he got promoted (position, anyway) to Chief of Operations for DS9 (clearly the station equivalent of starship Chief Engineer, which he said he was to 'Boone' in "TRIBUNAL").

We forgetting his stint as a lieutenant

 

[Farscape One]

We forgetting his stint as a lieutenant

O'Brien's rank was never consistent, so I am talking about his position only.