Garrett Wang

[Dee1891]

B'Elanna becoming the ship's Chief Engineer didn't happen that easily or that fast. But you seemed to exaggerate what really happened.

Why don't you guys just admit that you like to spend all of your time complaining about "Voyager" and Janeway in particular, because she is a woman who was the show's lead and commander of the ship? You hardly ever complain about those Trek shows that have a male lead or point out their flaws. The only other series you have rained this much criticism upon is "Star Trek Discovery". You do point out flaws in those shows that led by a man . . . but rarely. Not even "Enterprise" has received as much criticism as "Voyager" and "Discovery". And I'm getting a little tired of this hypocrisy and bigotry when it comes to "Star Trek Voyager".

 

[Farscape One]

Regarding Paris' reinstatement...

I just rewatched the dialogue from "UNIMATRIX ZERO' to be certain, and it is clear. Janeway said 'reinstate', not promote. Which means Tuvok was the only person who ever received a promotion. Everyone else received field commissions (Torres, the Maquis crew) or had their ranks reinstated (Chakotay, Tom).

Which is what Janeway thought, until she realized that B'Elanna was the more talented engineer. And if one is going to complain about B'Elanna becoming Chief Engineer, why not complain about Tom becoming the Chief Helmsman? You mean to say that he was the highest-ranking pilot aboard Voyager at the rank of lieutenant junior-grade and later ensign? Why not complain about Harry being the ship's Operation Officer and a member of the command staff, despite being an ensign fresh from the Academy?

I'm still complaining about Montgomery Scott being the Enterprise's third officer, despite the fact that he was not a Bridge officer. Sulu should have been Kirk's third officer. The Trek franchise tried to cover its ass with this mistake by allowing Charles "Trip" Tucker to be the original Enterprise's third officer, despite him not being a Bridge officer. Reed should have been Archer's third officer. The Chief Engineer might be part of the Command staff, but he or she is not a Bridge officer. Which means, he or she has no business being in command of a starship, unless all of the Bridge officers are disposed or unavailable.

It makes sense that Trip was third in line for command on ENT. First, he was a full commander, so he outranked everyone except Archer... and later T'Pol, when she got her Starfleet commission. Second, considering his extensive knowledge of the warp 5 engine, he was very well suited on kniwing all the capabilities of the Enterprise when an emergency occurs, making it easier to come up with solutions to emergencies quickly. Third, he had been in Starfleet for a long time, and had a great deal of experience, especially compared to Reed. And fourth, Scotty was seen in command on multiple occasions in TOS.

In TOS, Scotty was also outranked on the Enterprise only by Kirk and Spock. He also knew the ship extremely well, and he had been in Starfleet for a long time and served on multiple ships prior to the Enterprise.

Sulu was also in command multiple times, and both he and Scotty did their jobs well when in command. I have never had a problem with either being in the center seat when called for. (Particularly Scotty, though we had seen more scenarios where he could shine than Sulu.)

Tucker was not always level headed when he was in command, but he did more good decisions than bad.


Regarding the VGR examples...

As far as we know, Paris was the highest ranking helmsman on board... at least, before he got demoted.

And it is puzzling that Kim would be the head of Operations when we have seen other lieutenants on board, like Durst or Rollins. So I have no idea about that one.

And as for Torres, it makes sense (at least in the first couple seasons) that she would never be in line for commanding the bridge because she never graduated Starfleet Academy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

B'Elanna becoming the ship's Chief Engineer didn't happen that easily or that fast. But you seemed to exaggerate what really happened.

Why don't you guys just admit that you like to spend all of your time complaining about "Voyager" and Janeway in particular, because she is a woman who was the show's lead and commander of the ship? You hardly ever complain about those Trek shows that have a male lead or point out their flaws. The only other series you have rained this much criticism upon is "Star Trek Discovery". You do point out flaws in those shows that led by a man . . . but rarely. Not even "Enterprise" has received as much criticism as "Voyager" and "Discovery". And I'm getting a little tired of this hypocrisy and bigotry when it comes to "Star Trek Voyager".

Don't be a noob.

Rank denotes how much staff you are allowed to manage.

Any ensign can be chief engineer, because being chief engineer is not about engineering, it's about staff management.

The idea that B'Elanna would have to bow out if a superior engineer showed up is toxic, because Seven of Nine is a superior Engineer, and that didn't happen. Hells Bells, Marla Gilmore may have been a superior engineer to B'Elanna, and Marla had to eat it, being pushed around by fricking terrorist scum, even though she could engineer circles around Torres.

The chief engineers main job is the duty roster. They have to make sure that there is always 40 engineers awake and on task keeping the warp core humming, and everything else not on fire.

No engineering skill required.

 

[Farscape One]

B'Elanna becoming the ship's Chief Engineer didn't happen that easily or that fast. But you seemed to exaggerate what really happened.

Why don't you guys just admit that you like to spend all of your time complaining about "Voyager" and Janeway in particular, because she is a woman who was the show's lead and commander of the ship? You hardly ever complain about those Trek shows that have a male lead or point out their flaws. The only other series you have rained this much criticism upon is "Star Trek Discovery". You do point out flaws in those shows that led by a man . . . but rarely. Not even "Enterprise" has received as much criticism as "Voyager" and "Discovery". And I'm getting a little tired of this hypocrisy and bigotry when it comes to "Star Trek Voyager".

Think whatever you want or get as tired as you like. To each their own.

 

[Oddish]

B'Elanna becoming the ship's Chief Engineer didn't happen that easily or that fast. But you seemed to exaggerate what really happened.

She was chief engineer at the end of "Parallax". Same episode that started with her assaulting a superior. While I agree with Chakotay that the action needed to be handled in context (i.e. B'Elanna doesn't get reduced to Crewman and shoved in the brig for two months), an engineer who can't keep her fists to herself does not have the maturity to run the department.

Why don't you guys just admit that you like to spend all of your time complaining about "Voyager" and Janeway in particular, because she is a woman who was the show's lead and commander of the ship? You hardly ever complain about those Trek shows that have a male lead or point out their flaws.

First of all, let me be very clear. It's not really about Janeway. The Kathryn Janeway I know would have promoted Harry to lieutenant by the third season. It's the inept men who ran the show who gave us "somebody gotta be duh ensign".

The only other series you have rained this much criticism upon is "Star Trek Discovery". You do point out flaws in those shows that led by a man . . . but rarely. Not even "Enterprise" has received as much criticism as "Voyager" and "Discovery". And I'm getting a little tired of this hypocrisy and bigotry when it comes to "Star Trek Voyager".

I stopped watching Discovery in early seasons 1-3... when its captains were men.

I just rewatched the dialogue from "UNIMATRIX ZERO' to be certain, and it is clear. Janeway said 'reinstate', not promote. Which means Tuvok was the only person who ever received a promotion. Everyone else received field commissions (Torres, the Maquis crew) or had their ranks reinstated (Chakotay, Tom).

If Tom walked on the bridge an ensign and walked off it a lieutenant, that's a promotion.

And it is puzzling that Kim would be the head of Operations when we have seen other lieutenants on board, like Durst or Rollins. So I have no idea about that one.

Especially since Durst is an operations lieutenant. He should have been the one at the senior officer meetings until his death.

The idea that B'Elanna would have to bow out if a superior engineer showed up is toxic, because Seven of Nine is a superior Engineer, and that didn't happen.

Seven was used elsewhere, in astrometrics.

 

[Ragitsu]

Your Y is showing.

.

 

[Guy Gardener]

She was chief engineer at the end of "Parallax". Same episode that started with her assaulting a superior. While I agree with Chakotay that the action needed to be handled in context (i.e. B'Elanna doesn't get reduced to Crewman and shoved in the brig for two months), an engineer who can't keep her fists to herself does not have the maturity to run the department.



First of all, let me be very clear. It's not really about Janeway. The Kathryn Janeway I know would have promoted Harry to lieutenant by the third season. It's the inept men who ran the show who gave us "somebody gotta be duh ensign".



I stopped watching Discovery in early seasons 1-3... when its captains were men.



If Tom walked on the bridge an ensign and walked off it a lieutenant, that's a promotion.



Especially since Durst is an operations lieutenant. He should have been the one at the senior officer meetings until his death.



Seven was used elsewhere, in astrometrics.

Let's assume that Stellar Cartography was still there, and those feisty DeLanney girl's were still mapping everything, and figuring out to get home, like genius superheroes.

So... Astrometrics was redundant?

Busy work.

Astrometrics was redundant because Kathryn did not trust Seven of Nine not to betray her and dash any hope of their mission home succeeding.

They never trusted Seven.

 

[Oddish]

Your Y is showing.

.

Not hiding it. Don't plan to. My sex is male, my pronoun is "him", and to say anything different would be "un-Y's"

Astrometrics was redundant because Kathryn did not trust Seven of Nine not to betray her and dash any hope of their mission home succeeding.

They never trusted Seven.

*cough"One"cough*

 

[Farscape One]

She was chief engineer at the end of "Parallax". Same episode that started with her assaulting a superior. While I agree with Chakotay that the action needed to be handled in context (i.e. B'Elanna doesn't get reduced to Crewman and shoved in the brig for two months), an engineer who can't keep her fists to herself does not have the maturity to run the department.

Exactly.

 

[Guy Gardener]

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[Ragitsu]

Not even "Enterprise" has received as much criticism

"The worst aspects of the U.S.A....IN SPACE!", "Archer is the worst Star Trek Captain.", "Crappy Vulcans", "Enterprise endorses torture.", "The lore doesn't match up.", "The opening song sucks." and so on and so forth.

Uh...ENT has received oodles of criticism.

 

[fireproof78]

Why don't you guys just admit that you like to spend all of your time complaining about "Voyager" and Janeway in particular, because she is a woman who was the show's lead and commander of the ship?

Because that's not my issue. My issue is premise vs. execution.

Not even "Enterprise" has received as much criticism as "Voyager" and "Discovery". An

Because I stopped watching Enterprise after the first episode.

But, having been on various Trek fan sites and such for over a decade now I can verify that Enterprise got a ton of hate, as did Kelvin Trek, especially "dude bro" James Kirk, and being completely unfit to command.

Gender is not my issue with Voyager.

 

[Oddish]

@Guy Gardener - Well played.

But I still stand by my notion that B'Elanna should not have been chief engineer right away, and also that Harry should have begun his journey on the lower decks.

 

[Ragitsu]

Harry should have begun his journey on the lower decks.

Consigned to oblivion or potentially starring in some of the best episodes of Star Trek. Hell of a gamble, that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Because that's not my issue. My issue is premise vs. execution.

Because I stopped watching Enterprise after the first episode.

But, having been on various Trek fan sites and such for over a decade now I can verify that Enterprise got a ton of hate, as did Kelvin Trek, especially "dude bro" James Kirk, and being completely unfit to command.

Gender is not my issue with Voyager.

You have 4 seasons of Star Trek in your back pocket for a rainy day?

The pilot is shit, but it gets better quickly.

The Cogenitor fights are just as satisfying as the Tuvix arguments, which boils down to "Are you a dick if you teach a slave to read?"

And we get to see why Klingons are different, and what happened to the Supermen after Khan left Earth, and Where did the Defiant go after the Tholian Web... Actually all that happened in season 4.

Season 4 was tight. Lots of mini arcs and 4 part stories.

Season one and two might as well have been Voyager. One and done. One and done. One and done. Season 3 was one huge Supernatural/Buffy season long arc tacking against a single big bad, but it wasn't very good, yet better than Discovery season 3 and 4.

 

[fireproof78]

You have 4 seasons of Star Trek in your back pocket for a rainy day?

Life got in the way.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Life got in the way.

I guess your assumption was that you'd only have to wait 5 to 7 years for the next series to rear up, which maybe might be less shit?

A minor miscalculation.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess your assumption was that you'd only have to wait 5 to 7 years for the next series to rear up, which maybe might be less shit?

A minor miscalculation.

No. I got married and became a father.

Life happens. TV became less of priority.

 

[Farscape One]

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Okay, that is fair.

But Scotty hit an enemy of the Federation, NOT a fellow officer.

Torres knocked down not only a fellow officer in the same department, but a superior officer. (He was a lieutenant and assistant Chief Engineer, she had no rank or position at that point.)

Neither are excusable, but which one looks worse?

 

[Oddish]

Consigned to oblivion or potentially starring in some of the best episodes of Star Trek. Hell of a gamble, that.

Not exactly. We still see Harry going about his work on the bridge (and palling around with Paris), just as we see B'Elanna having verbal disagreements with Carey. We just see senior officers Durst and Carey at staff meetings, or are informed why they can't make it. Maybe B'Elanna could cover for him just so she's out of his hair.

In time, "Faces" occurs and Durst dies. In addition to being the highest ranking operations officer left on Voyager, Harry is the most capable. So, he is made acting chief of operations. He's out of his league at first in this leadership role, but he has outstanding role models in Tuvok, Janeway, and Chakotay. Over time, he grows in maturity and confidence. The title is made official a year or so later, and comes with a little more jewelry on his collar. In other words... Harry DEVELOPS as a character. What a concept, right?

The Cogenitor fights are just as satisfying as the Tuvix arguments, which boils down to "Are you a dick if you teach a slave to read?"

No, you're a dick if you keep a slave ignorant and won't even give them a ing ice cream sundae.

No. I got married and became a father.

Life happens. TV became less of priority.

Totally understand. I know intellectually that it's fortunate that I wasn't a parent, but it's still one of my deepest regrets. And, I know how much work it is.