Garrett Wang

[Oddish]

End of Season 6. Lifeline.

There's an admiral who thinks the Maquis are criminals under house arrest who should be tagged and monitored, who is going to throw them in jail in just 5 years, when the relief ships rendezvous with Voyager.

Didn't see that here: http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/622.htm

Individual trials would have put Lon Suder and B'Elanna into confinement away from the ship's guts and particulars.

Believe me, I'd've liked to see B'Elanna get a court martial, for assault if nothing else! Having her have pervasive behavior/anger issues would have given her far superior character development potential.

An individual Trial might have even unmasked Seska, who should have been a friend, since the Federation and the Union were allies at the time.

Seska could have wound up as an ally regardless. And a useful one at that.

 

[Farscape One]

The Cardassians were never allies with the Federation. There was a treaty that called off the war and established the DMZ, but a peace treaty is very different from being an active ally.

The only time the Cardassians were allies with the Federation was the final battle of the Dominion War... and that was simply them fighting a now common enemy.

 

[Oddish]

The Cardassians were never allies with the Federation. There was a treaty that called off the war and established the DMZ, but a peace treaty is very different from being an active ally.

That doesn't mean Seska couldn't have established an alliance of convenience with the Voyager crew, which might have become more formalized after the Dominion war, when the Federation set a relief effort for Cardassia in motion.

 

[Farscape One]

The Dominion War was during VGR seasons 4-5. If Seska survived that long, I agree she would have done convenient alliances. But it never would have been formalized... she wasn't trustworthy enough.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Didn't see that here: http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/622.htm



Believe me, I'd've liked to see B'Elanna get a court martial, for assault if nothing else! Having her have pervasive behavior/anger issues would have given her far superior character development potential.



Seska could have wound up as an ally regardless. And a useful one at that.

CHAKOTAY: What?
JANEWAY: Status of the Maquis.
CHAKOTAY: Do you find that surprising?
JANEWAY: I don't think of you or B'Elanna or the others as Maquis. I think of you as part of my crew.
CHAKOTAY: You may have forgotten, but we haven't. You heard the Admiral. It'll be years before we have to deal with those issues. Let's worry about it then.

(translation)

Janeway: I'm Surprised!

Chakotay: I'm not surprised.

Janeway: No, You should be surprised.

Chakotay: I killed people Kathryn.

 

[Phaser Two]

The Cardassians were never allies with the Federation. There was a treaty that called off the war and established the DMZ, but a peace treaty is very different from being an active ally.

The only time the Cardassians were allies with the Federation was the final battle of the Dominion War... and that was simply them fighting a now common enemy.

Indeed! In fact, as of the "current" moment in time - i.e., disregarding Discovery's leap forward - only the Dominion and the Cardassians really remain as true bad guys. Everyone else has been transformed into an ally. And if you count whatever treaty ended the war with the Dominion, then you can count them out as well (along with 8472). It's interesting to me, and not solely because (although the Maquis premise never really resonated with me at all - a perhaps surprising fact for someone who loves the Bajorans and for whom VOY is the second-favorite series) I have always found the Cardassians (and possibly the Founders/Vorta) to be the only truly irredeemable villains in the franchise.

 

[fireproof78]

Indeed! In fact, as of the "current" moment in time - i.e., disregarding Discovery's leap forward - only the Dominion and the Cardassians really remain as true bad guys. Everyone else has been transformed into an ally. And if you count whatever treaty ended the war with the Dominion, then you can count them out as well (along with 8472). It's interesting to me, and not solely because (although the Maquis premise never really resonated with me at all - a perhaps surprising fact for someone who loves the Bajorans and for whom VOY is the second-favorite series) I have always found the Cardassians (and possibly the Founders/Vorta) to be the only truly irredeemable villains in the franchise.

What about the Tholians? There was a war with them that Riker's father fought in and we have limited information on them, so they might not be an ally.

 

[Oddish]

Is there any truly irredeemable villain? It's usually just a matter of change of leadership.

The Klingons were tenuous allies through the K'mpec era, and went from tenuous allies to enemies to tenuous allies again under Gowron. With Martok in charge, they are probably solid allies.

The Cardassian civilian government were briefly reasonably friendly with the Federation, until Dukat took over and joined the Dominion.

The Borg are... well, the Borg. But with the Queen we saw in the Picard S2 finale? An alliance comes together.

I could go on and on.

 

[fireproof78]

Is there any truly irredeemable villain? It's usually just a matter of change of leadership.

In Trek it usually depends on the needs of the plot. Kor was a villain and willing to kill an entire population to inflict the will of the Empire on the Organians. Then, in DS9...no biggie.

 

[Oddish]

True.

Getting back to Garrett Wang's almost being dropped, I'm left wondering how the show would have been affected if he got the axe instead of Kes. Only real downside is losing the Tom/Harry friendship, which I did enjoy. Sadly, Harry was not developed enough to be saved on his own merits. Even Timeless could have been done with a different lead.

Save Kes, and Voyager's main cast would have been nearly half female. Female viewers might appreciate that. But given the episodic nature of the show, developing her and taking us through her life would have been hard. It's telling that "Before and After" had better character development than the actual show... with all surviving characters.

 

[drt]

But given the episodic nature of the show, developing her and taking us through her life would have been hard.

I think her super short lifespan was one of those things the production thought up during the development process in order to make her character different and more interesting. However, they never really seemed to know where to go with it. If Kes had lasted the full run of the show, I fully expect they would have had an episode in the sixth or seventh season where her lifespan would have been extended indefinitely.

 

[Oddish]

I fully expect they would have had an episode in the sixth or seventh season where her lifespan would have been extended indefinitely.

Not sure about that, actually... Trek is not known for having people accept an offer of either immortality or unnaturally extended lifespan. Unnatural deaths are regularly reversed, but avoiding natural aging and death are another matter. Look at "Hide and Q", "The Schizoid Man", and "Racsals", to name a few. And, this theme reasserts itself in other aspects of pop culture:
* "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone"
* "Tuck Everlasting"
* Disney's "Peter Pan" and "Hercules"
* And, it's not new by any stretch. Odysseus declined immortality from Calypso to return to his family in "The Odyssey".

Because Kes's life is so short, she might be an exception... but no guarantees.

 

[at Quark's]

It wouldn't have been necessary anyway. Ocampa are expected to reach 8 or 9 years of age, so it could just have fitted with Voyager's expected 7 years run without her getting an extended lifespan. The only thing would be if we would have seen her age and as we saw in Before and After, Ocampa apparently look fairly young well into their last year of life so even that could probably have been avoided.

 

[Ragitsu]

Everybody have fun tonight
Everybody have fun tonight
Everybody Garrett Wang tonight
Everybody have fun tonight
Everybody Garrett Wang tonight
Everybody have fun

 

[Phaser Two]

Is there any truly irredeemable villain? It's usually just a matter of change of leadership.

The Klingons were tenuous allies through the K'mpec era, and went from tenuous allies to enemies to tenuous allies again under Gowron. With Martok in charge, they are probably solid allies.

The Cardassian civilian government were briefly reasonably friendly with the Federation, until Dukat took over and joined the Dominion.

The Borg are... well, the Borg. But with the Queen we saw in the Picard S2 finale? An alliance comes together.

I could go on and on.

Yeah, for me, the Cardassians and the Dominion. But back to Garrett.

 

[Sumire]

The show might not have suffered a great deal due to how overlooked poor Harry was but 1) it would have been a blow to Asian-American representation which is still an issue almost 30 years later and 2) we wouldn’t have the Delta Flyers.

Still wish they had kept and fully utilized them both but if wishes were horses…

 

[Oddish]

Honestly, there were overlooked characters on TOS and TNG. DS9 was more balanced, but it was the outlier in that regard. Harry could have been like Beverly Crusher or Pavel Chekov in that regard. Indeed, as far as I'm concerned, there are several things that would have been acceptable...

1. The Path of Nog: do something new with him. He's not the newbie anymore, so take him in a new direction. Like they were going to do in "Favorite Son" by making him an alien.

2. The Path of Tasha: kill him off, preferably in a reasonably heroic manner. He dies, Voyager lives, and he gets the best eulogy since Spock in STII. Kate Mulgrew could nail this. Or, delete him from the show non-lethally, but in a way that makes sense.

3. The Path of Beverly: have him fade quietly into the background, but in a manner that shows respect for the character and the audience. That is to say, don't assassinate him my making him seem like a clueless cadet when he's served seven hard years, and for crying out loud, shoot a 20-second scene where Jabeway sticks a hollow pip on his collar!

Pretty low expectations, right? It seems amazing that the producers could still fall shy of them.

 

[Ragitsu]

Of the three principal United States actors of Asian descent from the three "TNG-era" Star Trek series, I'd say that Yasutake's Ogawa was the the best of the bunch simply because there was never anything wrong with her acting nor was she subjected to shoddy directing or writing. Sparse moments of genuinely inspired acting aside, Wang's Kim was plain oatmeal with a healthy helping of skim milk. Though I generally liked Chao's Ishikawa/O'Brien, there were some episodes of DS9 where the character came across as a shrew...and if that wasn't the actor's fault, then it was the result of the writers smoking something fierce; maybe they had it out for Miles?

 

[at Quark's]

Honestly, there were overlooked characters on TOS and TNG. DS9 was more balanced, but it was the outlier in that regard. Harry could have been like Beverly Crusher or Pavel Chekov in that regard. Indeed, as far as I'm concerned, there are several things that would have been acceptable...

1. The Path of Nog: do something new with him. He's not the newbie anymore, so take him in a new direction. Like they were going to do in "Favorite Son" by making him an alien.

2. The Path of Tasha: kill him off, preferably in a reasonably heroic manner. He dies, Voyager lives, and he gets the best eulogy since Spock in STII. Kate Mulgrew could nail this. Or, delete him from the show non-lethally, but in a way that makes sense.

3. The Path of Beverly: have him fade quietly into the background, but in a manner that shows respect for the character and the audience. That is to say, don't assassinate him my making him seem like a clueless cadet when he's served seven hard years, and for crying out loud, shoot a 20-second scene where Jabeway sticks a hollow pip on his collar!

Pretty low expectations, right? It seems amazing that the producers could still fall shy of them.

They sound better than the Path of Chakotay (becoming Janeway's lapdog) or the Path of Kes (specifically: Fury, I could live with The Gift), or the Path of Jadzia (happening to be just in the way when Evil strikes).

Even so, I'm not really certain of the level of respect Beverley got from the writers from the very start. She was shown as a competent doctor, yes, but her other attributes were mainly subsidiary being Mother of Wesley and Pseudo Lover of Picard. We don't learn much about herself.

 

[Oddish]

Though I generally liked Chao's Ishikawa/O'Brien, there were some episodes of DS9 where the character came across as a shrew...and if that wasn't the actor's fault, then it was the result of the writers smoking something fierce; maybe they had it out for Miles?

Maybe they were like the writers of LA Noire... there were actually quite a few married characters in that game and not one marriage presented was anything but totally dysfunctional. Even the protagonist was obviously having marital problems, probably due to PTSD.

Sparse moments of genuinely inspired acting aside, Wang's Kim was plain oatmeal with a healthy helping of skim milk.

Like every other redshirt on Voyager. Harry just had a name, a few lines, and he was harder to kill.

the Path of Jadzia (happening to be just in the way when Evil strikes).

I considered calling it the Path of Spock, die heroically saving the ship, but Spock didn't stay dead. Of course, Harry might return for a few guest appearances. Alternate realities, time travel, holographic recreation, or Kobali-fication are all possibilities.

Even so, I'm not really certain of the level of respect Beverley got from the writers from the very start. She was shown as a competent doctor, yes, but her other attributes were mainly subsidiary being Mother of Wesley and Pseudo Lover of Picard. We don't learn much about herself.

Indeed... but at least Beverly wasn't getting assassinated right and left. Look at "Nightingale", an episode already on my crap-list because it was basically a raised middle finger to the viewers who complained about Harry's low rank... consider that Harry has known nothing but competent leadership under Janeway, Chakotay and Tuvok. But he proves completely incapable of translating that.

On the other hand, Beverly did the wild mambo with an 800 year old alien candle ghost on Planet Scotland. That does even things up a bit.