Garrett Wang

[Oddish]

Not really the right thread but the hostility to Janeway over Tuvix never really made sense to me. She would have been committing two murders the other way. What she did unmade an accident. I always thought much of the wrath toward her over the decision was rooted in something else. Regardless, it's a brilliant episode.

It wouldn't have been committing two murders, just not reversing two accidental deaths. But agreed, I can understand her choice. Janeway made a fair number of questionable decisions, but most of them had at least a rational justification.

MOST of them. Her treatment of Harry had none.

To be clear, there is none in my posts. It's one of my fave VOY eps. Both sides of the argument have pros and cons, which is what makes it interesting.

So interesting, it's still intensely debated several decades after the fact. There are few (if any) classic episodes that get discussed more, in fact.

 

[at Quark's]

I never had the feeling Janeway had anything against Tuvix personally, just that he was in the way of getting Neelix and Tuvok back, to put it bluntly.She certainly didn't seem to detest him.

And when an accidental death is reversible and an individual could be restored to perfect health, you could debate whether refusing to do so is not also a form of manslaughter at the very least. I'm not one of those that necessarily sees a relevant difference in exactly how direct your personal involvement is in such trolley problems where you have to choose between the death of 1 individual vs. a group of individuals. (Refusing to take action is also a decision that influences the outcome).

Of course Tuvix was scripted to have no perfectly 'clean' solution either way. That's exactly what makes it a good episode.

 

[Phaser Two]

She certainly didn't seem to detest him.

Oh, no - on the contrary. I think the script and KM's acting make it clear that Janeway quite liked him. That makes the ending all the more poignant.

 

[Oddish]

Oh, no - on the contrary. I think the script and KM's acting make it clear that Janeway quite liked him. That makes the ending all the more poignant.

I'll go beyond that, and say that I think that Janeway's decision was not set in stone or inevitable. What if, for instance, she had spoken to the Doctor about the separation procedure? Hearing his absolute refusal to be involved, invoking his hardwired principle of primum non nocere, she realized that a hologram had proven to be a better and more moral person than she. End result, Tuvix lives.

It should be clearly understood that while Janeway's decision regarding Tuvix might have been reprehensible, but there was justification for it: preserving the lives of Tuvok and Neelix. It's similar with her other questionable decisions. Harry's eternal ensignhood isn't regarded as among Janeway's worst decisions because of the level of harm it did (at most, it ruined one officer's career). It's so regarded because there was no good reason for it.

 

[drt]

It's similar with her other questionable decisions. Harry's eternal ensignhood isn't regarded as among Janeway's worst decisions because of the level of harm it did (at most, it ruined one officer's career). It's so regarded because there was no good reason for it.

The eternal ensignhood also seems less like any decision Janeway made in-universe, versus a creative (or lack thereof) decision made by the showrunners, which is actually worse because it effecs the verisimilitude of the show.

 

[Phaser Two]

Harry's eternal ensignhood isn't regarded as among Janeway's worst decisions because of the level of harm it did (at most, it ruined one officer's career). It's so regarded because there was no good reason for it.

Well, good thoughts and the showrunners really frustrated me with that one, but I don't think it ruined his career, either. We know that Tom was a full lieutenant in his Lower Decks appearance, so he was promoted one full rank very quickly after the return, and we also know that Chakotay was promoted two ranks (I will be on the hill forever that he was an LCDR per his insignia) to captain. I bet Harry was promoted to LTJG or even LT almost immediately upon Voyager's return (and given all of the awesome Voyager nostalgia now I am almost certain we are going to find out with a canon Harry appearance!) - and if he was, which seems reasonable, he'd be more or less on track for a nice career. LaForge, Data, Worf, and Tuvok were all LCDRs who had more experience as operations division officers (with Worf's later switchover to command), I believe, than Harry's seven years.

 

[Oddish]

The eternal ensignhood also seems less like any decision Janeway made in-universe, versus a creative (or lack thereof) decision made by the showrunners, which is actually worse because it effecs the verisimilitude of the show.

That is why, when asked to defend my position that Voyager's showrunners lacked a clue, I consider Harry's collar evidence enough. Though of course, we got plenty more.

Well, good thoughts and the showrunners really frustrated me with that one, but I don't think it ruined his career, either.

Fair enough. Note that I said "at most", as in "worst case scenario".

I will be on the hill forever that he was an LCDR per his insignia

He was a LCDR in Starfleet when he resigned, just like Tom was a LTJG. Janeway simply reactivated their existing commissions.

I bet Harry was promoted to LTJG or even LT almost immediately upon Voyager's return (and given all of the awesome Voyager nostalgia now I am almost certain we are going to find out with a canon Harry appearance!) - and if he was, which seems reasonable, he'd be more or less on track for a nice career.

Tropes aside, that is the most likely event. I was rereading the excellent "The Autobiography of Kathryn Janeway", and I don't think the author thought much of the showrunners' actions: first, she never defends the decision from Janeway's perspective, and second, she reverses it basically as soon as the canon show ends: she declares that her final act as Voyager's CO is to promote Harry to lieutenant, and assures us that he ascended through the ranks rapidly afterward, culminating in his own command (as also happened in "Endgame" and STO). Even his bad luck in love works out all right, since Libby has been equally unsuccessful, and the two quickly rekindle their romance upon his return.

The only way I could see Harry being the eternal ensign actually lies, ironically, in Garrett Wang's own story of Harry's post-Voyager adventures (misadventures?), which I think might have been a play to write his character into "Lower Decks". And I could actually live with it if they did that canonically. I might personally think it's crap, but Garrett has way more of a right to suggest a fate for his character than any of us do.

 

[Phaser Two]

He was a LCDR in Starfleet when he resigned, just like Tom was a LTJG. Janeway simply reactivated their existing commissions.

Makes sense to me. Also, Cavit was an LCDR, so there really wasn't any reason to have Chakotay outrank him. The ship seemed the right size - as opposed to the original Enterprise or the Enterprise-D/E - to have an LCDR rather than a full commander serving as first officer. I think those who insist that Chakotay was an O-5 equivalent rest their case on the fact that he was never referred to as "Lieutenant Commander Chakotay," but I don't care. For one thing, the rank insignia he wore is unmistakably the provisional version of two and a half pips.

As for Garrett, with the DF podcast - where he comes off as only slightly less of a great guy than Robbie; they're both fantastically nice dudes - and the Voyager renaissance, I would be verrrrrry surprised if he isn't angling to come back as Harry in some form, probably as a semi-regular at least. And I don't think he'll be an ensign. I love that the Janeway autobio (which I should read, despite or even because of the fact that it will probably conflict with canon soon) mentions that he got back together with Libby.

 

[Oddish]

I love that the Janeway autobio (which I should read, despite or even because of the fact that it will probably conflict with canon soon) mentions that he got back together with Libby.

Alas, it already does. Both "Lower Decks" and "Prodigy" overwrite her character fates for Tom and Chakotay, and I think some of Seven's details are overwritten by "Picard". But it still has some nice stuff in it, including some visual aids. And the "surprise" Janeway gets upon her return to the Alpha Quadrant is both heartwarming and makes sense.

 

[Phaser Two]

Alas, it already does. Both "Lower Decks" and "Prodigy" overwrite her character fates for Tom and Chakotay, and I think some of Seven's details are overwritten by "Picard". But it still has some nice stuff in it, including some visual aids. And the "surprise" Janeway gets upon her return to the Alpha Quadrant is both heartwarming and makes sense.

Sounds like a great read considering that Janeway is one of my very favorite characters in the franchise. Thanks.

 

[Oddish]

Sounds like a great read considering that Janeway is one of my very favorite characters in the franchise. Thanks.

You're quite welcome. Great read or listen, if you prefer audiobooks. Kate Mulgrew did the recording herself.

 

[Lynx]

I admit, I managed to stick with Discovery, and I might recommend that detractors take a second look if they ever dump Michael Burnham!
Speaking of second looks, I think I owe Jennifer Lien an apology. Upthread, I mentioned that she didn't think Fury was well acted. I now think she was wrong. Fury has many problems, but she is not one of them. She put her heart and soul into what was a far more challenging job than early Kes, and she certainly should not blame herself for its unpopularity. Yes, after years of reading about it, I have finally watched it, in full.

Personally I think that Lien's only mistake was to participate in that horrible episode. I must admit that she lost a lot of points in my book for that.

It comes on the heels of "Non Sequitur", where Harry was on the verge of promotion in another universe. So it would have made sense for Janeway to say that she was putting him in for the same.

Whether it was or not, Harry was played as one of her favorites. And the subtle art of pretending to like someone while secretly detesting them and wishing them harm... that's out of character for her.

And Tom was wearing full lieutenant pips (○○) instead of the LTJG ones (○●) he wore later on. Voyager's costumers stepped in it in a big way.

Those in charge of Voyager had obviously not a clue about the show from one day to another.

Take a look at the fifth act of the script, everything after the Doc discovers that the two can be separated and Tuvix says he doesn't want to die.
http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/220.htm
I think you'll find that, whether her actions were right, wrong, or murderous, Janeway is completely forthcoming.

It wouldn't have been committing two murders, just not reversing two accidental deaths. But agreed, I can understand her choice. Janeway made a fair number of questionable decisions, but most of them had at least a rational justification.

MOST of them. Her treatment of Harry had none.

So interesting, it's still intensely debated several decades after the fact. There are few (if any) classic episodes that get discussed more, in fact.

As for the Tuvix case, my opinion is that Janeway didn't murder anyone. She corrected what was the result of a malfunction in the transporter system and brought Tuvok and Neelix back.

I do feel sorry for Tuvix in a way but I think that Janeway made the right choice, how painful it might have been.

And it's a credit to the episode that it's still debated after all those years.

 

[Lynx]

Well, Tom got promoted for a year and a half of "exemplary" service. Why should Harry not get the same, consider he provided six years and change?

I can understand that many are annoyed over the fact that Harry wasn't promoted.

But there was actually one good reason for it.
He didn't like Iron Maiden!


I'm sorry Mr Kim but I can't give you a promotion because your musical taste is AWFUL!


And then some hours later when Harry is going to drown his sorrows at Quark's bar at Deep Space Nine.

Sorry Harry!
Here's the reason why I was promoted last week and you weren't!

And it didn't help that he tried to pretend that he liked the band either!

 

[Oddish]

As for the Tuvix case, my opinion is that Janeway didn't murder anyone. She corrected what was the result of a malfunction in the transporter system and brought Tuvok and Neelix back.

It's amazing the spectrum of beliefs people offer, from "Janeway did the right thing" to "Janeway committed
-ing MURDER!". In "Autobiography", she reveals a discussion she had with Tuvok about it, later that day. Regarding whether an action should be judged by quality of result, or by moral principles.

Personally I think that Lien's only mistake was to participate in that horrible episode. I must admit that she lost a lot of points in my book for

I will go along with that. Better to let Kes go out on the high note she did.

But there was actually one good reason for it.
He didn't like Iron Maiden!

Well geez, how dare he, the little clarinet playing peta'Q! Janeway should have made him "kiss the gunner's daughter" in front of the entire ship's company!

And then some hours later when Harry is going to drown his sorrows at Quark's bar at Deep Space Nine.

And at the next table, he sees the teenage Ferengi who was wiping his table last time he was there, now wearing a Starfleet uniform... with lieutenant's pips.

Kes's shirt gives him an inspiration as to how to end his misery... he orders the holosuite to play an Iron Maiden concert, disables the safeties, and increases the volume to 186 decibels (185 is fatal). And so, despite a rather geeky life, he dies in the coolest way possible.

@Lynx You totally bring out the worst in me.

 

[Lynx]

It's amazing the spectrum of beliefs people offer, from "Janeway did the right thing" to "Janeway committed
-ing MURDER!". In "Autobiography", she reveals a discussion she had with Tuvok about it, later that day. Regarding whether an action should be judged by quality of result, or by moral principles.

Is this Autobiography similar to the one about Captain Picard and how much does it contradict what was written in Mosaic by Jeri Taylor.

Mosaic was a good read but the Janeway we saw in that book was a young, very insecure and confused person. Not to mention her "father complex" which for some strange reason also shows up about some of the other main characters in Taylors second book Pathways.

Something remarcable must have happened to Janeway after the death of her father and fiance and when she took command over Voyager.

Anyway, I will read the autobiography. I just hope that nothing is mentioned about a certain event in season 6 in it.

I will go along with that. Better to let Kes go out on the high note she did.

I won't call it a "high note" just something less insulting and stupid than in that season 6 episode. At least it gave me a great opportunity to write a decent come-back story.

Well geez, how dare he, the little clarinet playing peta'Q! Janeway should have made him "kiss the gunner's daughter" in front of the entire ship's company!

And at the next table, he sees the teenage Ferengi who was wiping his table last time he was there, now wearing a Starfleet uniform... with lieutenant's pips.

I never thought of that before but it's the absolute truth!
It must have been the worst shock Harry ever had in his life.

Kes's shirt gives him an inspiration as to how to end his misery... he orders the holosuite to play an Iron Maiden concert, disables the safeties, and increases the volume to 186 decibels (185 is fatal). And so, despite a rather geeky life, he dies in the coolest way possible.

I don't think Harry is suicidal but seeing Nog as a lieutenant would definitely cause some reaction.
Maybe he locked himself into his quarter and started to listen to Iron Maiden whikle chewing on some Leola Roots in order to find something in the songs which explained how Nog could become a lieutenant but he couldn't.

Finally he found what he was looking for in the song "Sea Of Madness"

Oh, my eyes, they see but I can't believe
Oh, my heart is heavy
As I turn my back and leave

So maybe he would star to think about resigning from Starfleet and take a job at Nicole Janeway's ostrich farm instead.

See The Kes Website and the page "Voyager Mysteries-and how to solve them" for further information about Nicole Janeway.


[/QUOTE] @Lynx You totally bring out the worst in me. [/QUOTE]
Sometimes it brings out the worst of myself too!

 

[Oddish]

I don't think Harry is suicidal but seeing Nog as a lieutenant would definitely cause some reaction.

If would have been an interesting conversation, in an alternate universe where Voyager wound up at DS9 upon returning. Each officer describes what happened to them: losing a leg in a war, dying a few times, etc. And Nog will inform Harry that he's heard rumors swirling around that the whole Voyager crew are being honored and promoted by multiple grades. So he probably won't outrank him for long.

So maybe he would star to think about resigning from Starfleet and take a job at Nicole Janeway's ostrich farm instead.

Or do as Garrett Wang himself suggested...

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

See The Kes Website and the page "Voyager Mysteries-and how to solve them" for further information about Nicole Janeway.

I'll do that.

Anyway, I will read the autobiography. I just hope that nothing is mentioned about a certain event in season 6 in it.

EDIT: I'm sorry to say that yes, it does get touched upon. But it's only about half a page, so I think you'll survive.

 

[Geargoose]

I bet Harry was promoted to LTJG or even LT almost immediately upon Voyager's return

Absolutely agree.

I don't see any problems in Kim not being promoted, because almost no one was. Only Tuvok really got promoted, Tom and Chakotay got their previous ranks.

I always thought that something like "non-official" promotion system was on Voyager, crew members were "virtually" promoted, and crew got their real promotions when Voy arrived home

 

[fireproof78]

Tom and

Tom was demoted then restored. Harry had time in grade, was a department head, and a good record. Promote him.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Lets say that Star Fleet wants to stop a promotion happy Captain from flooding their ship with promotions, so the computer caps it.

Maybe she's allowed to promote 5 people 1 grade per year, and that's it.

After the Pilot, the 15ish Maquis, if you count the enlisted ranks, was 15 people promoted 5 to ten grades in her first week in the Delta Quadrant.

She used up a decades worth of promotions on day 8.

 

[fireproof78]

Lets say that Star Fleet wants to stop a promotion happy Captain from flooding their ship with promotions, so the computer caps it.

Maybe she's allowed to promote 5 people 1 grade per year, and that's it.

After the Pilot, the 15ish Maquis, if you count the enlisted ranks, was 15 people promoted 5 to ten grades in her first week in the Delta Quadrant.

She used up a decades worth of promotions on day 8.

Sounds great. Put it in the show.