Garrett Wang

[fireproof78]

It's one thing to just passively have him remain an ensign for the entirety of the series, but to actually call out the weirdness and arguably even make fun of it got under my skin a bit.

Exactly.

 

[at Quark's]

Kim's rank might have been less of an issue for me except for (at least) two things:
1) When Tom gets demoted and then re-promoted, and the latter in a method such that Kim even points out, 'I don't see a box on my chair.'
2) When Kim's parents comment on the fact that he's still an ensign.

It's one thing to just passively have him remain an ensign for the entirety of the series, but to actually call out the weirdness and arguably even make fun of it got under my skin a bit.

It would be like a non-descript crewman on TNG interrupting Picard before a hazardous mission to say, 'Hey, maybe we should separate the ship first?' in that it makes Our Heroes look bad by highlighting something that makes no sense in-universe.

I agree. In itself I don't mind Kim's stagnant career too much - it's just fiction I watch for relaxation and I'm not too concerned with internal world building- but I don't like the yes, we know, and we don't give a shit, we'll do whatever we like - attitude it seemed to convey. (Not saying that was actually their intention, just that it came accross that way). I have the same problem with Fury- bringing Kes back in such a dreadful way after some fans had complained about her leaving the series.

 

[Sumire]

I started university in 1995 and could only watch things in the common room of our dorm (if the TV wasn’t already claimed) and that only if I kept the schedule straight (which I was never adept at) so I caught Voyager entirely by chance and usually when I was home on breaks. By 2000, I had a general feel for the characters but if I saw Unimatrix Zero when it originally aired, I probably assumed the exchange regarding Harry’s promotion wasn’t as mean-spirited as it appeared; that there must be some reason behind it that I, in my ignorance, was unaware of but that made the teasing affectionate. Watching it now, it’s just mean for no reason.

 

[Oddish]

1) When Tom gets demoted and then re-promoted, and the latter in a method such that Kim even points out, 'I don't see a box on my chair.'
2) When Kim's parents comment on the fact that he's still an ensign.

It's one thing to just passively have him remain an ensign for the entirety of the series, but to actually call out the weirdness and arguably even make fun of it got under my skin a bit.

Pretty sure it was even more mean spirited than you think. When S6 ended, Tom got restored to lieutenant, and Harry complained... I expect a lot of viewers did as well. Rather than accommodate them (the sensible thing) or ignore them (unwise enough), they decided to tease them, with the "Author Author" scene, as well as the one in "Nightingale" where Harry points out that he's still an ensign after seven years, and Janeway gets on his case about him "bucking for a promotion". Mentioning that he's been shafted twice in seven years is nothing of the sort.

It seemed to me like this was basically the showrunners telling the audience "we're going to do this, and there's nothing you can do to stop us, so screw you".

Interestingly, the latest crew of showrunners have been careful to ensure that we know nothing canonically about Harry since then, even though Garrett Wang's been more than willing to lend his talents (voice or otherwise). I wonder if it's because some of the fans are taking a sadistic pleasure in Harry's being the "eternal ensign", and others are still outraged about it... if they establish his fate canonically, someone gets pissed off no matter what.

 

[Akiraprise]

even though Garrett Wang's been more than willing to lend his talents

Maybe they haven't brought Harry back because they haven't forgotten Wang was difficult to work with in the past and don't want to deal with behind the scenes drama? As a fan of Harry be happy you didn't get the recast Icheb fate. Could that be considered a true FU?

 

[Oddish]

Maybe they haven't brought Harry back because they haven't forgotten Wang was difficult to work with in the past and don't want to deal with behind the scenes drama?

That's a possibility. It's been theorized that Harry's low rank was retaliation for his IRL actor's bad behavior. Given that the same geniuses who came up with that also managed "Enterprise", it's no wonder the show was basically mortally wounded after its first two seasons.

As a fan of Harry be happy you didn't get the recast Icheb fate. Could that be considered a true FU?

Yes it could. But while some FU's are more subtle than others, they're no less abusive.

Honestly, if they had handled it right, it wouldn't have bothered me that much if Harry's character had been killed off. As a writer, I've killed off characters many times, including ones I liked. But showing a lack of respect for your audience's intelligence, and then basically slapping them across the face when they complain... yeah, that bothers me. Call me crazy.

 

[at Quark's]

That's a possibility. It's been theorized that Harry's low rank was retaliation for his IRL actor's bad behavior. Given that the same geniuses who came up with that also managed "Enterprise", it's no wonder the show was basically mortally wounded after its first two seasons.

Never quite understood that theory. I can understand the show runners punishing an actor by giving him less interesting stories and diminishing his role in the series, but rank of the character you play in itself doesn't say anything about that. If I were an actor, I'd rather have all kinds of interesting adventures and a lot of screen time as an Ensign, than to be shoved to the background as Janeways second-in-command. Of course, Harry didn't get either (screentime or rank).

 

[Oddish]

Good point, but consider what should have happened. The writers knew that every other recurring ensign in the first three shows received a promotion. Ergo, the decision not to do likewise with Harry was a deliberate act, not mere taking the path of least resistance (that would have been promoting him without fanfare between the 4th and 5th season). And when the fans complained, they were basically told to piss off. So the decision to keep Harry at ensign was calculated, and obviously mattered greatly to someone high in the show's pecking order.

 

[Farscape One]

There is merit to that theory, since Tuvok was promoted to Lt. Cmdr. in early season 4, and Tom demoted and promoted back to Lt.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Harry joined the Maquis, he could have traded in his pips for a Lieutenant's provisional rank badge?

 

[Oddish]

No, but if he stayed on Earth in "Non Sequitur", he probably would have had them in another 8 months. Maybe faster, if he got up to speed on his counterpart's shuttle design.

Just for fun, I've provided a link to another topic, where I list ten opportunities the show had to rank Harry up in a way that made sense. The link sends you to page 51, the remaining opportunities are on 52 and 53.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/why-does-harry-kim-never-get-promoted.299297/page-51

 

[Lynx]

Alixus was misguided. Pol Pot was a mass murdering monster. You want that level of evil, there's this TNG show called "Half a Life"...

Pol Pot was a mass murdering monster but Alixus wasn't so far from that. She let people die and suffer of diseases while she basically could had pushed a button to get Federation help for that and she put people in tirture cages to punish them because they opposed her. Not so big difference actually.
But I agree on your comment about the society in Half A Life.

Better for Harry to just stagnate, right?

Definitely not. He could have developed like Tim McGee in NCIS who was a lot like that series "whipping boy" and geek in the first seasons but has developed to a responsible and skilled agent as the series has continued.

Again, have him mind meld with a Vulcan to prove his sincerity. Imagine this...
LT. MARAK: "I've completed my mind meld with Ensign Kim. I found eight months of detailed memories of his time on Voyager, most notably of Captain Janeway. Apparently upon their first meeting, she admonished him not to call her 'sir'."
ADM. LARSON: "Yeah, that's Kathryn. Was Tom Paris featured?"
LT. MARAK: "Yes. He was Voyager's helm officer, and Ensign Kim's close friend."
ADM. LARSON: "All right. Sounds like Mr. Kim is who he says he is. Remove the anklet, and let's find out what he knows about Voyager. If they're out there in this timeline, we may be able to send them a message."

Well, that could have worked out better. But I still tjhnk that harry made a good choice by going back tho Voyager.

The showrunners, chiefly Rick Berman if rumors are correct, wouldn't let them.

Berman was a great obstacle for the show.
I give Berman and Braga all credit for TNG but they shouldn't have been involved with Voyager. They were responsible for what went wrong with Voyager.

The guy I killed wasn't the main character, just an important one. Equivalent to a Chekov, or a Deanna Troi... or Harry Kim.

Just the kind of characters I simply can't kill off in my stories.

That's a possibility. It's been theorized that Harry's low rank was retaliation for his IRL actor's bad behavior. Given that the same geniuses who came up with that also managed "Enterprise", it's no wonder the show was basically mortally wounded after its first two seasons.



Yes it could. But while some FU's are more subtle than others, they're no less abusive.

Honestly, if they had handled it right, it wouldn't have bothered me that much if Harry's character had been killed off. As a writer, I've killed off characters many times, including ones I liked. But showing a lack of respect for your audience's intelligence, and then basically slapping them across the face when they complain... yeah, that bothers me. Call me crazy.

They did show the same lack of respect for the Kes fans when they came up with that episode in season 6.

No, but if he stayed on Earth in "Non Sequitur", he probably would have had them in another 8 months. Maybe faster, if he got up to speed on his counterpart's shuttle design.

Just for fun, I've provided a link to another topic, where I list ten opportunities the show had to rank Harry up in a way that made sense. The link sends you to page 51, the remaining opportunities are on 52 and 53.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/why-does-harry-kim-never-get-promoted.299297/page-51

But if he had stayed on Earth in Non Sequitur, it would have ruined the episode, hadn't it?

I mean, anything can be that way though I draw the line at the dystopian moniker, because it actually should mean something rather than "Stuff I don't like."

History is always a mixed bag because humans are a mixed bag. We are not all sunshine and roses and freaking Star Trek teaches us that!

Star trek has actually been good att that, showing humanity from both it's best and worst sides.

Unfortunately, even Star Trek has been affected by the current doom-and-gloom and dystopian disease which have made most series in the latest two decades unwatchable. I just have to think of Star Trek Discovery and some of the recent movies to start losing interest.

 

[fireproof78]

But if he had stayed on Earth in Non Sequitur, it would have ruined the episode, hadn't it?

Nope.

 

[fireproof78]

Unfortunately, even Star Trek has been affected by the current doom-and-gloom and dystopian disease which have made most series in the latest two decades unwatchable. I just have to think of Star Trek Discovery and some of the recent movies to start losing interest.

Mileage will vary. "Doom and gloom" is only such if the characters stay there. They don't. They overcome and that is what I want. Dystopian means the bad guys win. That does not happen in any Trek.

 

[Farscape One]

Mileage will vary. "Doom and gloom" is only such if the characters stay there. They don't. They overcome and that is what I want. Dystopian means the bad guys win. That does not happen in any Trek.

Winn became Kai over Bareil, who was the virtual shoe-in for the title. Her scheme ended up with him giving up the race, and she was able to get voted in as Kai. ("THE COLLABORATOR")

The Dominion got the Obsidian Order destroyed and severely hurt the Tal Shiar. ("THE DIE IS CAST")

The Voth leader got Professor Gegen to retract his entire theory and sent him to work in a department that renders him useless. ("DISTANT ORIGIN")

Salish got Miramanee stoned to death. ("THE PARADISE SYNDROME")


There are more examples, but sometimes the bad guys do win. That happens in real life a lot, so this actually keeps things somewhat realistic.

 

[Oddish]

Well, that could have worked out better. But I still tjhnk that harry made a good choice by going back tho Voyager.

He was choosing between a life of security, Vulcan mochas, hot sex with Libby, and rapid career advancement... and a life of danger, Neelix's cooking, high pitched sonic showers, and career ruination. Could we at least have had him be a little uncertain before choosing the latter?!

Berman was a great obstacle for the show.
I give Berman and Braga all credit for TNG but they shouldn't have been involved with Voyager. They were responsible for what went wrong with Voyager.

Because like old dogs, they couldn't learn the new tricks needed to make Voyager it's own show?

Just the kind of characters I simply can't kill off in my stories

Different strokes, I guess.

They did show the same lack of respect for the Kes fans when they came up with that episode in season 6.

I quite agree. While I was fine with her initial exit (i know you weren't), they should have left it at that.

But if he had stayed on Earth in Non Sequitur, it would have ruined the episode

Or possibly made it more daring.

Unfortunately, even Star Trek has been affected by the current doom-and-gloom and dystopian disease which have made most series in the latest two decades unwatchable.

I can understand that.

There are more examples, but sometimes the bad guys do win. That happens in real life a lot, so this actually keeps things somewhat realistic.

Don't forget "Half a Life", and the planet that goes full genocide on its people. Of course, given that they've just eliminated the only man who might be able to fix their sun, maybe they do lose in the end.

 

[at Quark's]

^His career ruination on Voyager wasn't obvious yet at that point; he'd only been out of the academy for eight months. But yes, he seemed to advance faster on Earth even then.

 

[Phaser Two]

In the midst of this awesome Voyager Renaissance, it's the perfect time to bring Wang back as Harry and give the character some canonical development. Prodigy is virtually a Voyager sequel (and a fantastic one) and I have high hopes Seven is going to get her own show as a Picard spinoff. I'm sure Wang has long ago atoned for any bad behavior.

 

[fireproof78]

There are more examples, but sometimes the bad guys do win. That happens in real life a lot, so this actually keeps things somewhat realistic.

But, even if the bad guys win its wrapped up nice and neatly. The heroes move on and shrug off any loss. It's very neat and tidy.

 

[Sumire]

But, even if the bad guys win its wrapped up nice and neatly. The heroes move on and shrug off any loss. It's very neat and tidy.

Honestly, that should have been point #1 in my “they’re sort of like fairy tales” thesis. It is very neat and tidy. If romance is my number one reason for seeking out fanfic, emotional context is reason number two. Serialized media often has our protagonists shrugging off events that should keep them in therapy for years and I, daughter of a counselor that I am, seek out fanfic to provide the space to wrestle with the messy emotional outfall my heart argues should be there.