Garrett Wang

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Athena28, Aug 22, 2020.

  1. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

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    In Before and After they show her still appearing exactly the same when she holds her grandson. So the idea probably was that she would start aging rapidly only in her last (2) year(s) , or so. Of course the real reasons probably were both convenience and a preference to generally show young attractive people on screen for the ratings.
     
  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If they wanted a sexy, attractive alien lady... Explain the wig.
     
  3. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

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    ^I didn't say 'sexy', just 'attractive'. And I think she was just that, even with the wig. She could have been more so without it, though, I'll agree to that. I think the wig was there to give her a more elvish, somewhat alien, and "innocent" appearance, in line with how the character was supposed to be from the start.

    The show was sexed up with 7 of 9 joining (and in my eyes, going for the look they gave her was completely unnecessary).
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
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  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Was it?

    A Borg is basically a mummy.

    When has there ever been a beautiful Mummy?

    The Mummy's girlfriend who was also a mummy from The Mummy 1999.

    Was she a mummy?

    Marta from Arrested Development?

    Really?

    Inca mummy Girl from Buffy was a treat.

    Never mind.

    I guess there's nothing from stopping a mummy from being attractive.

    My bad.
     
  5. Athena28

    Athena28 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree. Kim and/or Chakotay could've been gone. Kes definitely had more story to be told.
     
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  6. Athena28

    Athena28 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes and no. He might've liked to leave but then he'd also have to leave the steady paycheck.
     
  7. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Either Non Sequitur or Favorite Son would have been a great way to delete Harry Kim from the show.

    Non Sequitur: He can't go back. Once the Vulcan mocha guy explains to him that it's impossible, he accepts things. He explains what happened to his superiors. He doesn't make LTJG because he's "forgotten" what he did the last 8 months, but he'll get back there. His part in the show ends with him marrying Libby and embracing his new future.

    Favorite Son: Harry really is an alien. He stays on the planet and gets an endless supply of poon tang. And no, he doesn't die; they rewrite the ending so that men don't get sucked dry on their wedding night.

    I liked Harry, but if they weren't going to do anything with him (or even promote him for crying out loud), it would have been better for them to keep Kes.
     
  8. Drone

    Drone Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I thought I had read somewhere, that there were considerations being given to making Kes a primary contact for Seven and aiding her in the transition back to humanity. Perhaps, that might strike many people as ridiculous given that Kes was an alien, but I feel that in many ways, she quickly came to represent what was the best in the ethos of ST, as I understand it. In fact, whether it was a supposition of mine, or not, I could forsee Seven forging a sisterly bond with someone who inherently, wouldn't judge her, and was simultaneously on her own journey of discovery. Such a connection could have even made more effective, instances in which decisions of Janeway's might be questioned or even challenged. Certainly, a much more effective bulwark, than Chakotay was allowed to be. From what now seems clear, at last, such a formulation would never have even been posited.

    As just a musing of my own, I think Kes could have become Voyager's counselor. She was readily accepted by all of the crew, and her incipient wisdom, compassion, yet resolute carriage in fighting for what she believed was morally right, would have served that role, whether formally conferred, or not, quite well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
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  9. Drone

    Drone Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I find it quite affecting that you are one of the few folks here (or were, when I was active) that seems to apprehend that truth, which I have found deeply moving and profoundly sorrowful, for many years. It's to your credit that you are able to look past all the felgercarb that courses through any thread that involves Lien, and acknowledge the fundamental quality of that realization.
     
  10. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    I agree that Kes's arc had a lot of potential left. Elogium, motherhood, aging, dying... all of it in Voyager's projected seven year journey.

    What happened with Harry in "Favorite Son" showed that there was potential for him, too. The original decision, which was to make him an alien and possibly go somewhere with this new aspect of his character, was initiated by the writers and axed by the higher-ups. It seems very clear; the "worst of both worlds" decision to keep Harry onboard and let his character stagnate (not even showing growth by promoting him for heaven's sake) was deliberate, calculated, and appallingly stupid.
     
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  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Borg nanoprobes could have been used to extend the Ocampan lifespan.

    If that was a permanent requirement, rather than a temp fix, like when Neelix when he was recovering from death, Seven might have needed to construct a collective with Kes by assimilating her, which would give the two blond women an ever greater children of the corn vibe.
     
  12. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    And then he never did :-/
    They never did anything with the Kimmster. Over sevens seasons he was there, taking up space. At least Kes had a vital role as the nurse and overseeing the hydroponics bay. Harry (and Chekotay) could have been replaced by a potted plant and it would largely be the same show.
    Not saying it's the fault of Garret Wang (or maybe not his alone), it would have been up to the writers to develop the character.
     
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  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The producers wanted to fire garret and then felt wretched that that dream was denied by the powers above.

    They did not want him there.

    It showed.
     
  14. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    And the showrunners to let them. They're the ones who deep-sixed the notion that Harry be an alien. It would have given a stagnating character a big breath of fresh air.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I was thinking that if both Harries lived from Deadlock, then there would be enough Harries to comfortably date the DeLaney sisters, unless those girls doubled as well.
     
  16. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    We'd have to find out what Harry's middle name was, so one of the "twins" could start using it.
     
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  17. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    Though tbf Voyager had quite a few stagnant characters, pretty much everyone who wasn't Seven, the Doctor or Janeway. Harry is just especially obvious because he was stuck as an ensign.
    Plus all the male Asian stereotypes they stuck him with (the clarinet playing, having overly involved parents, being awkward and intimidated around women like Seven) You'd think Star Trek should be better than that, but then you remember this came from the same people who brought you Chekotay.

    Threads like this usually bring up rumors that Wang showed up hungover on set and could barely remember his lines. Of course it's difficult to tell whether there's anything to it, now that it's 20 years later (and I think there were similar rumour about Jennifer Lienn)


    Honestly I'd just replace him with a doppleganger from a "dark timeline" where he got more badass. Weren't there a couple episodes like that?
     
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  18. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    I don't care if Mr. Wang did or did not behave that way. If he was misbehaving, they should have dismissed him from service and killed off his character. If they weren't going to do that, they should have done something with said character.
     
  19. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Kim, like Chakotay and Mayweather, is one of those characters that just reek of "token POC".

    Since human culture in Trek has lost any real sort of diversity and presented as "human" (with pretty much all of them being born and raised on Earth no less), then it's hard to make them stand out unless they are actually engaging characters for them to really make a mark. Kim, beyond the rookie out of his depth, never really had much else going for him.
     
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  20. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Apparently this will be an unpopular opinion, but I'm glad Kes was written out. I honestly can't think of any episode in which I liked her, other than when she was pushing Janeway to treat the Doctor with respect as a person, not just another electronic gadget.

    Of course she needed a clear-cut reason to be on the ship. As with any show or story, characters work best if they actually have a reason to be there, instead of floating aimlessly about, in and out of scenes like so many soap opera characters do when the writers haven't figured out how to incorporate them into one of the main storylines and they don't have enough presence to catalyze a new storyline by themselves.

    Her stories can be summed up as being taught by the Doctor, trying to fend off Neelix's increasingly-creepy jealousy and possessiveness, and being a carbon copy of Troi, but with less cleavage ("Captain, I'm in telepathic contact with a hostile group of aliens who want to kill us!" *screams/faints*).

    It wouldn't make sense for the crew not to have friends to relax with, to lean on in the bad times, to become best friends with... DS9 had that with Bashir and O'Brien, and that's my favorite part of that series.

    And keep in mind that Harry and B'Elanna were friends before Harry and Tom were.

    Harry was basically fresh out of the Academy and still lacked a lot of real-world life experiences unconnected with school. Then he ended up in a closed-community situation that pretty much guaranteed that he wouldn't have any chances to really spread his metaphorical wings for years.

    Every post-Endgame story I've ever read has had Harry signing up for another multi-year hitch in Starfleet. If Voyager's original mission had actually lasted the 3 weeks it was supposed to, who knows what directions Harry's career might have taken? But evidently he got used to ship life and saw planets as places to visit, but not live.

    Or maybe his mother really is that overbearing and smothering. :p