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Games....art or not?

C

clint g

Admiral
Admiral
Well, Ebert came out and said:

Having once made the statement above, I have declined all opportunities to enlarge upon it or defend it. That seemed to be a fool's errand, especially given the volume of messages I receive urging me to play this game or that and recant the error of my ways. Nevertheless, I remain convinced that in principle, video games cannot be art. Perhaps it is foolish of me to say "never," because never, as Rick Wakeman informs us, is a long, long time. Let me just say that no video gamer now living will survive long enough to experience the medium as an art form.
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http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html


Gamespys response is pretty entertaining

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/108/1085937p1.html


I for one disagree with Ebert, but that probably goes without saying :p

What is surprising though is that Hideo Kojima seems to be in line with Ebert.

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/01/23/curator-kojima-games-are-not-art/

Hideo Kojima makes potentially inflammatory comments regarding games as art -- or not art, in this case -- and declares himself as a game creator to be running a "museum" as well as creating "the art that's displayed in the museum." More odd analogies... wonderful.
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So what do you good folks think about this?
 
Are games art? Oh, I think so.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc6-zqcoWyM[/yt]
 
Some are definitly interactive pieces of art...
[yt]]]]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjZxdalCkkE[/yt]
 
The author of the piece Ebert ranted against also responded to his rant with her own rant.

I think the original point was that games can NEVER be art rather than they aren't art... which just isn't true. At the moment games just suck in terms of trying to tell any kind of meaningful stories (broad strokes of course, since there are several exceptions). But if we're stuck on Kratos and God of Angst 3: Angry White Man Edition and stories of that quality, then yeah.

I guess it depends on the definition of art. If the art of music isn't the notes on the page but the actual sounds in the air, then it's possible that the art of games isn't in the shitty stories/content but in the design of the button presses. I can see the "beauty" of a well executed Street Fighter combo, for instance.

Anyway, whatever. When we're all dead, it won't even be a question. :lol:
 
I suppose there are definitions of "art" that video games don't fit. I doubt a video game will ever be displayed in an art gallery and sell for thousands of dollars, for instance.
 
-Brett- said:
I suppose there are definitions of "art" that video games don't fit. I doubt a video game will ever be displayed in an art gallery and sell for thousands of dollars, for instance.
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It's true that games will never sell for thousands of dollars or be displayed in a museum, but neither will a movie or a book (barring are collectors pieces). It's movie and books that I find games more comparable too. Even then, games would be considered a different form of art in that they are more about participating in an experience rather than being fed it.
 
-Brett- said:
I suppose there are definitions of "art" that video games don't fit. I doubt a video game will ever be displayed in an art gallery and sell for thousands of dollars, for instance.
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Music doesn't either - only the objects related to music.

A flac file of a Beatles album is the same, if not better, than an original Beatles LP. There is no "value" to the music in so much as it is transmitted via vibrations of an instrument.
 
I would have to say yes, video games are a form of art. A certain level of design and creativity goes into their development.

This can range from very minor examples like the opening title screen of a sports game or to extreme examples like the creation of an entire world for something like an RPG.
 
I'd consider most games to be art. There are three things I look for when considering whether something is art or not.

1. Creativeness. Most games are creative works.

2. Completeness There's a finality to the creative process, such that the work is considered complete, to be taken as presented. Most games are complete products to be taken as presented, and immortalized through their sameness and predictability each time they are loaded.

3. Boundedness. The work is framed, such that there is a distinct boundary between what is part of the work and what is not part of the work. Most games do have a distinct boundary because the game world doesn't blur with the real world.
 
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Well Ebert would say that voice acting is art, animation is art and storytelling is art, but if you put them together in an interactive format they're not art? He's probably of a mindset that video games are still Frogger and Donkey Kong. He's also not the critic he used to be, and while his reviews are for the most part still well-written, he tends to get fixated on little things, make huge mistakes (hell, in his 1995 Star Trek Generations review, he thought Harriman was a young Picard), or make his reviews a puff piece for his political beliefs.

And you would think that a film critic of all people wouldn't be so hellbent to define art.
 
in the grand scheme of things, who cares?

i can understand the arguments for both sides and in the end, i still think, "why does it matter?"

the only reason i think it matters is so that game fans can validate their hobby/passion as something legitimate and valuable. games then are no longer just a time waster, or something for kids, they are "art."

but even that comes with a large caveat. is leisure suit lary art? is halo, art? modern warfare, art? shadow of the colossus? custer's revenge? spider solitaire? microsoft hearts?

the same argument can be made for movies/tv/paintings/music and all other forms of what people deem as "art." is Porky's art? Schindler's List? Deepthroat? Amadeus? Lady Gaga? Survivor? Romeo & Juliet?

in the end, it's easy to make a case and say they are all art. and again, does it matter?

no. what matters is if you, as an individual enjoy it. because in the end, the reason for the creation of these pieces (be it a painting or a game, or a piece of music) is to create an experience that resonates in some way with an audience.

(at least this is how i feel now, shooting from the hip without much time to give much thought to this)
 
In principle I agree, that it shouldn't matter how others view it. That being said, I get the impression that the belief by some that games are a kiddy hobby and not a serious media form is one of the reasons why the Jack Thompsons of the world were able to get away with all their bullshit.
 
I seem to recall Ebert's point was more about technicality definitions of the term 'art' than actual worth of video games.
 
The problem is Ebert isn't a gamer. I certainly wouldn't hold that against him - especially a man of his generation - but Ebert has no frame of reference to make a claim one way or another. It would be like Helen Keller saying movies aren't art. If you don't take part in the medium how would you know?

The thing that makes video games art to me are those rare gems like Metal Gear Solid, Bioshock and Mass Effect that make me emotionally invested in the world, story, and characters, all things that are emphatically unreal. Just look how many people cried when Aris died in FFVII. How is that not art?
 
If a movie can be art, then a video game can be, too. Heck, a rancid lump of fat and sleaze thrown into a corner is considered art. And yet some people still insist games are not art.

Simple as that.
 
firehawk12 said:
Yeah, he doesn't classify all films as art in the latest argument.
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Well that's just silly. Of course not every film is art just as not every canvas with paint on it is art. Art by definition is a result of a skill or a craft, so anything that that's the product of or expression of skilful work is art of it's own sort. Be it painting, sculpture, music, architecture, archery, Kung-Fu, literature and yes, video games.

Piles of bricks, unmade beds and bisected corpses on the other hand are just cheeky people seeing what they can get away with.
 
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