I think he was going with them. When he looked back at the gate closing I thought it was quite telling.
Spoilers Game of Thrones: The Final Season
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
- Start date
This is just not correct. The majority of viewers saw Daenerys as a hero throughout the series, as they should have because that was the misdirection. However, many of us WERE looking for signs throughout the series because the history of the Targaryens (I haven't read the supplementary material outside of the novels, mind you), which is mentioned a lot throughout the series.
If people ever thought Dany was a hero at any point past the final episodes of Season one then I seriously question their moral compass.
She enjoyed giving people horrible painful deaths if they had wronged her, compare that to Jon who killed as a last resort many times and even in the case of the likes of Janos Slynt he did it quick and painlessly as possible and you could see he didn't enjoy doing it whereas Dany in that situation would be practically cackling with glee as she slow roasted him with a honey glaze.
"Foreshadowing" doesn't cover it, it was telegraphed that she had a sadistic streak and the only thing keeping her from going full evil mode was the fact that there were good men surrounding her, pleading and convincing her to do the right thing most times. She lost them and the only thing holding back the true Dany was gone.
I'd argue Dany was never any better than Cersei, both were abuse victims growing up, both were sadists, both were selfish and highly narcissistic, the only difference between them was Cersei sought council from other psychopaths while Dany ended up surrounded by characters with good morals. And Cersei was an up front asshole while Dany was more of a fake nice girl personna. And at least Cersei genuinely cared about and loved her children.
The fact people have sympathy for Dany and not cersei is confusing, cerise was as much if not more of a tragic life as Dany. Cersei never had a chance whereas Dany had many good people surrounding her who cares about her and she still did the wrong thing.
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I can only agree with you. I think that I have dislike Daenerys since she put Mirri Maz Duur to death. Mirri was a victim of the Dothraki who was enslaved and raped by them and she thought back the only way she could - by using her spells. Daenerys later says that slaves should fight back but this seems that this did not apply when the masters were Daenerys’ husband and his horde.
Binge-watched the last 3 episodes yesterday. I have to admit I was a bit underwhelmed overall, but didn't actually perceive the characterization as cringe-worthy or coming out of the left field.
Dany always had those violent tendencies. It's not the first time she burned down a city, people or things. She's obsessed with the idea of power, of adulation and the iron throne (the symbol of both). For 6 seasons whatever she did seemed justified because she was in an environment where violence and lashing out meant life or death. I haven't seen much morality in Essos. So her claim to free slaves, to only be motivated for the good of the people, to "break the chains" ressembled some kind of moral fibre. It was an issue to get behind, but the way she went about it?
The problem started when she went to Westeros, essentially applying her moral compass to a situation that's entirely different. She was confronted with people who were loved by their followers, she was neither feared nor adored, but rather openly challenged. We all remember what Viserys said whenever Dany tried to challenge him - and that's what happened here. The thin veneer of sophistication broke.
But even if I don't exactly have an issue with that per se, I'd have wished it had been portrayed a bit better. Because the point where she lets the dragon loose on King's Landing was a bit unclear to me: Why that moment? She wasn't threatened, she didn't see Cersei smirk at her (which would have sufficed as provocation)... the moment simply didn't ring right with me. I understand she's continuously lost loved ones, the 2 dragons, Missandei, Jorah, in her mind Jon, Tyrion, Varys... still why then. And neither did Jon's not immediately drawing back. Hell, yes, he's in love blablabla, but he's established as having a strong moral compass, he knew that the city was surrendering at that moment... and he just kept fighting with just one feeble attempt of calling his troops back?
The same goes for the actual killing scene... I think I'd have swallowed Jon's killing Dany better if she had made a direct threat to Winterfell - granted, it was implied (and quite direct in Dany's speech to her troops but I don't think Jon speaks Eastern languages) in that people don't get to choose and she (and Jon) know what's best, and Tyrion said that as well... still... the scene didn't sit right with me.
The wrap-up:
Hm... First of all, prisoner Tyrion's speech... why again did anyone listen to him at that moment? And as the keeper of memories Bran takes the throne... it makes sense, but why should he be accepted in the first place? Except for Sam and the Starks Bran only comes across as the cripple, a bit strange in the head - but it's not like he did anything noteworthy during for example the battle against the Night King. So should anyone follow him?
Sansa establishing the kingdom in the North... okay... but there were quite a few families in that gathering who are actually oathsworn to the north (and who decided on Bran being the King)... so, do they now serve Sansa or Bran? Jon's being a Targaryen didn't really have any impact in the end... granted, he might always have been a threat to Dany's claim to the throne (the knowledge of others about his better claim to the throne, rather), but in the end Dany was paranoid anyway due to the lack of followership and uprise in opposing opinions. And the hereditary claim to the throne was abolished... Jon returns back to the ultimate north and rules there. Okay. So, in short, the Starks rule the entirety of Westeros, Arya goes off to explore a bit more...
I wasn't shocked by Jaime's return to Cersei - he's addicted to her, and even gentle Brienne can't change that. Brienne ending up in Bran's court didn't quite ring right with me: I'd have expected her to stay with Sansa in the north.
Other thoughts: the red keep was rebuilt awfully quickly judging from the council scene right at the end. And Dothraki und Unsullied ones multiply by day apparently (or they have their own "undead" feature).
Anyway: I think seasons 7 and 8 suffered a bit from being shortened (even if single episodes were longer). It led to certain mini-scenes being missing to understand twists better. Episodes 1+2 of season 8 could have been fit into one episode, it was just foreplay for the big battle (which took entirely too long for the strange ending), then we spent half of episode 4 partying, half of episode 5 watching a fire spread... the balance didn't quite work for me... So, season 8 leaves me just with an average "hmmm".
Dany always had those violent tendencies. It's not the first time she burned down a city, people or things. She's obsessed with the idea of power, of adulation and the iron throne (the symbol of both). For 6 seasons whatever she did seemed justified because she was in an environment where violence and lashing out meant life or death. I haven't seen much morality in Essos. So her claim to free slaves, to only be motivated for the good of the people, to "break the chains" ressembled some kind of moral fibre. It was an issue to get behind, but the way she went about it?
The problem started when she went to Westeros, essentially applying her moral compass to a situation that's entirely different. She was confronted with people who were loved by their followers, she was neither feared nor adored, but rather openly challenged. We all remember what Viserys said whenever Dany tried to challenge him - and that's what happened here. The thin veneer of sophistication broke.
But even if I don't exactly have an issue with that per se, I'd have wished it had been portrayed a bit better. Because the point where she lets the dragon loose on King's Landing was a bit unclear to me: Why that moment? She wasn't threatened, she didn't see Cersei smirk at her (which would have sufficed as provocation)... the moment simply didn't ring right with me. I understand she's continuously lost loved ones, the 2 dragons, Missandei, Jorah, in her mind Jon, Tyrion, Varys... still why then. And neither did Jon's not immediately drawing back. Hell, yes, he's in love blablabla, but he's established as having a strong moral compass, he knew that the city was surrendering at that moment... and he just kept fighting with just one feeble attempt of calling his troops back?
The same goes for the actual killing scene... I think I'd have swallowed Jon's killing Dany better if she had made a direct threat to Winterfell - granted, it was implied (and quite direct in Dany's speech to her troops but I don't think Jon speaks Eastern languages) in that people don't get to choose and she (and Jon) know what's best, and Tyrion said that as well... still... the scene didn't sit right with me.
The wrap-up:
Hm... First of all, prisoner Tyrion's speech... why again did anyone listen to him at that moment? And as the keeper of memories Bran takes the throne... it makes sense, but why should he be accepted in the first place? Except for Sam and the Starks Bran only comes across as the cripple, a bit strange in the head - but it's not like he did anything noteworthy during for example the battle against the Night King. So should anyone follow him?
Sansa establishing the kingdom in the North... okay... but there were quite a few families in that gathering who are actually oathsworn to the north (and who decided on Bran being the King)... so, do they now serve Sansa or Bran? Jon's being a Targaryen didn't really have any impact in the end... granted, he might always have been a threat to Dany's claim to the throne (the knowledge of others about his better claim to the throne, rather), but in the end Dany was paranoid anyway due to the lack of followership and uprise in opposing opinions. And the hereditary claim to the throne was abolished... Jon returns back to the ultimate north and rules there. Okay. So, in short, the Starks rule the entirety of Westeros, Arya goes off to explore a bit more...
I wasn't shocked by Jaime's return to Cersei - he's addicted to her, and even gentle Brienne can't change that. Brienne ending up in Bran's court didn't quite ring right with me: I'd have expected her to stay with Sansa in the north.
Other thoughts: the red keep was rebuilt awfully quickly judging from the council scene right at the end. And Dothraki und Unsullied ones multiply by day apparently (or they have their own "undead" feature).
Anyway: I think seasons 7 and 8 suffered a bit from being shortened (even if single episodes were longer). It led to certain mini-scenes being missing to understand twists better. Episodes 1+2 of season 8 could have been fit into one episode, it was just foreplay for the big battle (which took entirely too long for the strange ending), then we spent half of episode 4 partying, half of episode 5 watching a fire spread... the balance didn't quite work for me... So, season 8 leaves me just with an average "hmmm".
I'd have to re-watch it again, but I distinctly remember at the scene's end as they pulled back from the conversation that the floor map was still wrecked. Presumably the Keep was still a work in progress (?).
Here's the thing though, she didn't just take her revenge of the Dothraki, she effectively murdered an unborn child in the process. I don't think any mother is going to let that slide without inflicting just a *little* awful, painful, slow death.
I mean if Danny had just held her hands up and said "oh well I guess that's fair. He probably was going to grow up to be a genocidal warlord anyway." that would give us MORE reason the question her sanity, not less.
Jon may not understand those languages, but I am sure he heard her say "Winterfell" and "Dorne". So he knew she was not done liberating people.
I'm flabbergasted how people can continue to say the show went downhill after running out of source material... Did these people not read the last two books? They were fucking horrible. GRRM gets every bit as much blame as D&D if you think the show quality went downhill over the second half of the series.
I have not read the book, so can’t comment on this. But I read an article by someone who was a big fan of the books and this is what he said about the TV series once it went pass the published books:
- big events still happen but they are not set up as well.
- the storytelling is not as good as the first 3 books but better than books 4 & 5.
So basically he agreed with you.
What George R.R. Martin thinks:
http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/...MSjmddkb945fE34rfM743pDSFotpY-vjIp1YOauyw_vHw (Warning - The Blog is crashing a lot.}
The last night, the last show. After eight epic seasons, HBO’s GAME OF THRONES series has come to an end.
It is hard to believe it is over, if truth be told. The years have gone past in the blink of an eye. Can it really have been more than a decade since my manager Vince Gerardis set up a meeting at the Palm in LA, and I sat down for the first time with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for a lunch that lasted well past dinner? I asked them if they knew who Jon Snow’s mother was. Fortunately, they did.
That was how it started. It ended last night.
I had no clue, that afternoon at the Palm, that I was about to embark on a journey that would change my life. I had optioned books and stories for television and film before. Some had even been made There was no way to know that this one was going to be different, that this pilot would not only be shot, but would go on to become the most successful show in the history of HBO, win a record number of Emmy Awards, become the most popular (and most pirated) show in the world, and transform a group of talented but largely unknown actors into major celebrities and stars. Even less did I imagine that I would somehow become a celebrity as well… and if truth be told, I’m still not sure how that happened.
It has been a wild ride, to say the least.
I want to thank people, but there are so many. There were forty-two cast members at the season eight premiere in New York City, and that wasn’t even all of them. And the crew, though less visible than the cast, were no less important. We had some amazing people working on this show, as all those Emmys bear witness. David & Dan assembled a championship team. The directors were incredible as well. I should start naming names, but then I’d miss someone, there were so many. But I do need to mention David Benioff, Dan Weiss, Bryan Cogman (the third head of the dragon, as I said in the recent VANITY FAIR piece about him), and of course the great team at HBO, headed by Richard Plepler. Any other network, and GAME OF THRONES would not have been what it became. Most other networks, this series never gets made at all.
I could go on and on… and have, as I’ve been writing this post in my head… but there’s really too much to say. Parting is such sweet sorrow, the Bard wrote. In the weeks and months to come, I may post about some of my favorite moments from the making of this show… now and again, when I am feeling nostalgic… but just now, there are so many memories, and no time to do them all justice.
Let me say this much — last night was an ending, but it was also a beginning. Nobody is retiring any time soon. David and Dan are going on to STAR WARS and other projects beyond that. Amazon scooped up Bryan Cogman, and put him to work on developing shows of his own, as well as helping out on their big Tolkien project. Our brilliant cast has scattered to the four winds, but you’ll be seeing a lot of them in the years to come, in all manner of television shows and movies. Our directors are keeping busy as well. I suspect that you have not seen the last of Westeros on your television sets either, but I guess that all depends on how some of these successor shows turn out.
And me? I’m still here, and I’m still busy. As a producer, I’ve got five shows in development at HBO (some having nothing whatsoever to do with the world of Westeros), two at Hulu, one on the History Channel. I’m involved with a number of feature projects, some based upon my own stories and books, some on material created by others. There are these short films I am hoping to make, adaptations of classic stories by one of the most brilliant, quirky, and original writers our genre has ever produced. I’ve consulted on a video game out of Japan. And then there’s Meow Wolf…
And I’m writing. Winter is coming, I told you, long ago… and so it is. THE WINDS OF WINTER is very late, I know, I know, but it will be done. I won’t say when, I’ve tried that before, only to burn you all and jinx myself… but I will finish it, and then will come A DREAM OF SPRING.
How will it all end? I hear people asking. The same ending as the show? Different?
Well… yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes.
I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget. They had six hours for this final season. I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them. And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one. There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet. And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort…
Book or show, which will be the “real” ending? It’s a silly question. How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?
How about this? I’ll write it. You read it. Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.
http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/...MSjmddkb945fE34rfM743pDSFotpY-vjIp1YOauyw_vHw (Warning - The Blog is crashing a lot.}
The last night, the last show. After eight epic seasons, HBO’s GAME OF THRONES series has come to an end.
It is hard to believe it is over, if truth be told. The years have gone past in the blink of an eye. Can it really have been more than a decade since my manager Vince Gerardis set up a meeting at the Palm in LA, and I sat down for the first time with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for a lunch that lasted well past dinner? I asked them if they knew who Jon Snow’s mother was. Fortunately, they did.
That was how it started. It ended last night.
I had no clue, that afternoon at the Palm, that I was about to embark on a journey that would change my life. I had optioned books and stories for television and film before. Some had even been made There was no way to know that this one was going to be different, that this pilot would not only be shot, but would go on to become the most successful show in the history of HBO, win a record number of Emmy Awards, become the most popular (and most pirated) show in the world, and transform a group of talented but largely unknown actors into major celebrities and stars. Even less did I imagine that I would somehow become a celebrity as well… and if truth be told, I’m still not sure how that happened.
It has been a wild ride, to say the least.
I want to thank people, but there are so many. There were forty-two cast members at the season eight premiere in New York City, and that wasn’t even all of them. And the crew, though less visible than the cast, were no less important. We had some amazing people working on this show, as all those Emmys bear witness. David & Dan assembled a championship team. The directors were incredible as well. I should start naming names, but then I’d miss someone, there were so many. But I do need to mention David Benioff, Dan Weiss, Bryan Cogman (the third head of the dragon, as I said in the recent VANITY FAIR piece about him), and of course the great team at HBO, headed by Richard Plepler. Any other network, and GAME OF THRONES would not have been what it became. Most other networks, this series never gets made at all.
I could go on and on… and have, as I’ve been writing this post in my head… but there’s really too much to say. Parting is such sweet sorrow, the Bard wrote. In the weeks and months to come, I may post about some of my favorite moments from the making of this show… now and again, when I am feeling nostalgic… but just now, there are so many memories, and no time to do them all justice.
Let me say this much — last night was an ending, but it was also a beginning. Nobody is retiring any time soon. David and Dan are going on to STAR WARS and other projects beyond that. Amazon scooped up Bryan Cogman, and put him to work on developing shows of his own, as well as helping out on their big Tolkien project. Our brilliant cast has scattered to the four winds, but you’ll be seeing a lot of them in the years to come, in all manner of television shows and movies. Our directors are keeping busy as well. I suspect that you have not seen the last of Westeros on your television sets either, but I guess that all depends on how some of these successor shows turn out.
And me? I’m still here, and I’m still busy. As a producer, I’ve got five shows in development at HBO (some having nothing whatsoever to do with the world of Westeros), two at Hulu, one on the History Channel. I’m involved with a number of feature projects, some based upon my own stories and books, some on material created by others. There are these short films I am hoping to make, adaptations of classic stories by one of the most brilliant, quirky, and original writers our genre has ever produced. I’ve consulted on a video game out of Japan. And then there’s Meow Wolf…
And I’m writing. Winter is coming, I told you, long ago… and so it is. THE WINDS OF WINTER is very late, I know, I know, but it will be done. I won’t say when, I’ve tried that before, only to burn you all and jinx myself… but I will finish it, and then will come A DREAM OF SPRING.
How will it all end? I hear people asking. The same ending as the show? Different?
Well… yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes.
I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget. They had six hours for this final season. I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them. And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one. There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet. And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort…
Book or show, which will be the “real” ending? It’s a silly question. How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?
How about this? I’ll write it. You read it. Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.
Interesting business article claiming a big financial mistake by HBO to end the series:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/g...d-have-a-good-case-to-sue-in-court-2019-05-20
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/g...d-have-a-good-case-to-sue-in-court-2019-05-20
This is an article based around a gross misinterpretation of events. Basically because HBO begged, pleaded, threw money at the stars, and cried tears of shame to keep the show going.
The actors wanted out, the show runners wanted out, and the CGI dire wolves probably wanted out.
It's why there was the ludicrous two short seasons.
What did they plan to do? Kidnap Maise Williams at gunpoint?
Excellent words of wisdom from George.
...but an expected 3000 manuscript pages for the next two books?!
I know that will be edited down by the time they're published, but that's still a massive amount of writing. No wonder it's taking him forever.
...but an expected 3000 manuscript pages for the next two books?!
I know that will be edited down by the time they're published, but that's still a massive amount of writing. No wonder it's taking him forever.
Excellent words of wisdom from George.
...but an expected 3000 manuscript pages for the next two books?!
I know that will be edited down by the time they're published, but that's still a massive amount of writing. No wonder it's taking him forever.
I think George may, just maybe, should make more than 7 books. I dunno, release one after the other?
Well...it depends on the level of involvement. Might be as little as name only (bragging rights) and as much creating a layout for the series and helping it launch. I seriously doubt any of them require him on a daily basis on the level of a show runner.
Yep. Remember, both Gene Roddenberry and Glen Larson were listed as "executive producer/consultants", or some-such, and were completely shut-out of their respective creations. I suspect it's more of an "honor title" than anything in this case, giving the source material creator eternal props for making something that gave them all a steady paycheck for a few years, but like Nth Doctor says, limited-or-no involvement in the actual inner workings of the show outside of the occasional "does this sound right to you?" question from the writers' room.
Though, like Winston Churchill, he does have a team of writers helping him, doesn't he? The team used to include the writers of The Expanse, so they've perhaps been busily occupied with completing that series of books.Excellent words of wisdom from George.
...but an expected 3000 manuscript pages for the next two books?!
I know that will be edited down by the time they're published, but that's still a massive amount of writing. No wonder it's taking him forever.
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