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Spoilers Game of Thrones: The Final Season

Is anyone arguing that she's evil today, though? seems like you're pushing past that to make a point. I think where it seems to be going is just that she's going too far, ends justifying the means, etc. As her rightful claim has fallen apart, she's now trying to force it, and screw 'em if they don't go along. That's not evil, but it's not what you look for in a leader either.
 
Brutal doesn't equal evil... especially in a place like Westeros.

The writers are suddenly trying to twist Dany's actions so that they're seen as being unhinged and excessive purely for the sake of melodrama, revealing a double standard that has rightfully pissed people off.
What makes you think she is evil now? Do you expect the Dany we've see so far to just hand the Throne to Jon? Or to give up because Cersei is using human shields? She doesn't think she has a choice at this point. The situation backed her into a corner. And as you can see from the immediate enemies she suddenly has (Varys) she was right to try to get Jon to keep his lineage a secret.

EDIT: I think all of our throne contenders would do the same things she's doing (maybe worse). Other than Jon. And that's why Varys has switched his allegiance to Jon.
 
I like the theory banded about that Jon (an undead person) stabs Daeny (using the magic dagger borrowed from Arya and suitable location next to a Weirwood I guess), and she is then resurrected as the Night Queen. Fire becomes Ice and the cycle continues. I suspect this might happen because the only other being we've seen who was impervious to fire was the Night King. I fully expect this guess to be proved wrong.

Whether Bran fixes the wall remains to be seen but I doubt there's going to be any major time-travel shenanigans, reset buttons etc. That would be lame.

I really want Bran to warg into a giant Kraken next episode and screw that smug git Euron and his navy. The Scorpions might not be designed to aim downwards.
 
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I really want Bran to warg into a giant Kraken next episode and screw that smug git Euron and his navy. The Scorpions might not be designed to aim downwards.
That would certainly make up for the severe lack of warging beyond ravens! I sure hope it happens. :D
 
Unlikely theory 2:

Maybe Sam has rediscovered how to make gunpowder (75% saltpeter obtainable from urine or bat and bird guano, 15% charcoal, and 10% brimstone by weight IIRC) from the books he stole and Gendry has been busy forging cannons and cannonballs.
 
Unlikely theory 3:

Jon and Daeny build a large wooden lion and leave it as a gift outside the gates to King's Landing and pretend to bugger off...

ETA: It appeared that the walls were overlooked by taller hills. Roll some big round boulders up to the top of those hills and let gravity do the rest.

Or have Drogon drop a cylindrical boulder and let it bounce up against the wall while stirring music is playing.
 
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Is anyone arguing that she's evil today, though? seems like you're pushing past that to make a point. I think where it seems to be going is just that she's going too far, ends justifying the means, etc. As her rightful claim has fallen apart, she's now trying to force it, and screw 'em if they don't go along. That's not evil, but it's not what you look for in a leader either.
Yeah, I was going to make the same point. No one was really arguing that she's evil. But, then I decided not to waste my time writing it up!
 
There's a lot of nonsense being tossed about in support of the preposterous Mad Queen arc. Those who agree with the producers' deeply felt conviction that Daenerys was a monster for tormenting the Masters are only consistent in thinking Daenerys did any good thing. Sorry that actually discussing this takes so much space.

She didn't torment, she crucified them. Along the roadside. That's meeting cruelty with cruelty. It's simply not justice. It's revenge. It's fucking insane.

As for the rest, TL;DR
 
There's a lot of nonsense being tossed about in support of the preposterous Mad Queen arc. Those who agree with the producers' deeply felt conviction that Daenerys was a monster for tormenting the Masters are only consistent in thinking Daenerys did any good thing. Sorry that actually discussing this takes so much space.

Beginning at the beginning, Daenerys was dedicated to her brother retaking the throne because she would at some point be killed if she didn't. Sansa wants to be queen (in effect) to be safe. Same motive, but one is supposed to be evil, and Sansa is brave and has agency, which is just a double standard indulged because Daenerys is John Brown and must be mad. If one tries to be modern and deny the legitimacy of hereditary monarchy, the problem is that Sansa also believes in the Stark family hereditary monarchy. Condemning Daenerys but not Sansa is just the double standard again.

Daenerys did not urge Drogo to kill Viserys.

As for Daenerys not being satisfied to be Khal Drogo's wife, Sansa wasn't satisfied being Tyrion's wife either. Taking the Iron Throne was not just being safe, but finding somewhere else to live than Vaes Dothrak. I'm sympathetic, though any who think Dothraki customs for wives are suitable will disagree. After Drogo died, she gave others a chance to leave, and some did.

The rulers of Qarth attacked first. This was not going to be resolved peacefully. She didn't have the numbers to conquer the city.

The sack of Astapor was conducted by slaves freed after Daenerys used her dragon to murder the slavemaster. This earned the permanent hatred for her. The conquest of Yunkai, ditto. In Meereen, the crucifixion of a Master for each child crucified was stern but just, an example of why we should prefer to beg mercy than to demand justice. The show believes the whole Meereenese storyline about how awful it was to torment the Masters by freeing slaves is "The Yankee carpetbaggers and scalawags tormented the South with their mad, vicious, inhuman ideology of Reconstrutction?" Oh, yeah, after they made sure we knew some slaves wanted to stay with the masters they loved, and it was right not to execute rich people but to execute uppity ex-slaves who were taking an unjust revenge, and executing the good rich folk was murderous tyranny because they had nothing to do with the Sons of the Harpy, who were just hirelings paid by somebody else, they discreetly dispatched the Sons of the Harpy. They had after all done their work in showing how Daenerys was a wicked tyrant. This whole storyline was preposterous, no matter how sincere the producers were in believing this BS. Proffering this reactionary mythology as proof Daenerys was always evil is unacceptable to anyone who doesn't agree.

At the supply train, Daenerys had a cavalry force and a dragon, with no way to take prisoners. The Lannister soldiers had to surrender, because it would be criminal for her to leave them unmolested, later killing more of her followers. The man responsible for negotiating their surrender, refused any effort resolve their status, urging them implicitly to a futile defiance, even to the point of refusing an indirect surrender by taking the Black. Killing him was a military necessity, and much more merciful to the rank and file. Tyrion was distraught because Tyrion doesn't give a shit about ordinary people.

Sansa's enmity for Daenerys came first. There is no escaping that, and no excusing it. She hates Daenerys more than she hates Cersei and feared the Night King. As to Daenerys' temper, sure it's real. It is also known that Daenerys will listen to advisors, just as Sansa listened to Brienne when she wanted to kill Jaime.

Sansa had no real reason to think Daenerys is mad (except a violent prejudice in favor of the sanctity of noble life a la Tyrion.) And she knew Daenerys and Jon were in love. She hated Daenerys because she wanted an independent kingdom in the North (if not more,) one that she would be enormously influential in. She pushed Jon into attacking Bolton, she could hope to push him into much more. If she had sent the knight of the Vale to the wall, rather than forcing Jon to seek help from Daenerys, the Night King wouldn't have been able to break the wall, while the gates could be held. It is not at all clear that Bolton had to be attacked. She wanted it, though.

After Sansa finds out about Jon's birth, the claim is that she knew magically there could be no reconciliation through love, marriage or Daenerys proclaiming her heir. This is manifestly nonsense. Her problem was Daenerys being queen, period. That's why she deliberately tried to subvert Tyrion, risking Jon's life by inducing a crisis, because it would be much easier to kill Daenerys then. She deliberately forestalled any effort to work out a partnership, because she wanted war, not peace. (Her personal sufferings have not made her a good person. It is understandable and maybe forgivable.)

The last issue of course is the stuff about Jon being the legitimate heir. Sorry, no. First, he has declared his loyalty, which was an abdication of royal claim, to the kingdom of the North. It is not immediately clear that it isn't also an abdication from all royal claims. Second, there really is no such thing as a secret annulment. That's as ridiculous as Qyburn's scorpions. I don't know of any kind of law that would allow even a High Septon to annul a royal marriage without legal proceedings where Ellaria (and the King, for that matter) have their say. A medieval pope couldn't! The show may sincerely believe Jon is the legitimate heir, and may foist stupidity into Daenerys' mouth to the same effect. But it's stupid.

And lastly, Daenerys' real claim to the Iron Throne is the same as Aegon Targaryen's, dragons. If anybody had another just claim to the Iron Throne beyond dubious law, it was Renly Baratheon whose claim was really based on the acclamation of the majority of nobles. (That was why he had to be assassinated, he had too much support to be defeated in the field, even if it wasn't a general.)

The mad queen scenario is wrong, even if it was intended. The producers evidently thought they were writing a supervillain with misdirects, but they inadvertently wrote a heroine. Everything now to support their supervillain plan has to falsify the character they wrote---which they did, however much they misunderstood---or rely on stupid tripe like the ridiculous one party secret annulment or a double standard where Sansa is justified by her belief in hereditary monarchy but Daenerys isn't.

The funny thing is, Sansa isn't even very nice. She has almost never done anything good for someone else, and she has never expressed much affection for anyone she didn't grow up with. And yes, that includes Tyrion.


One question is, if she does goes mad is it because she's psychotic or is its because she's actually fed up? There was a scene where she seemed to be tuning everything out and the voices became echos as if she was hearing things, as if the show was hinting at something. Varys and Tyrion have been talking a lot more about her mental state than they did before.

If she did go a little mad because of anger, over everything that's happened, it's not too hard to sympathize with her at this point. The psychotic thing is a whole other issue.


Yeah, but her sense of justice can be warped. She doesn't take things on a case by case basis, like when she crucified all those people, or when she killed Sam's brother.

She went against her advisors.

She did help save the people of Westeros, which arguably was out of self interest since you can't rule if everyone is dead.

One of the biggest themes of the show is that while nobody is completely good, nobody is completely evil either. Even Cersei was seen as sympathetic in a few episodes.

True.

In Daenery's mind, she did the moral thing Cersei didn't do--she fought besides the north to save them. Yet Cersei is probably seen as a savior and Daenerys has to be super careful not to scratch anything while they killed her allies and dragons and best friend.


No matter what she does with King's Landing, Daenerys is up against a rock and a hard place. She wants to break the wheel, but how do you break a wheel without breaking anything? Westeros is such a moral, corrupt mess no matter what she does, there will be a backlash. The same people who are grateful to Cersei were the ones who rioted against her. It's too crazy.

If I were Tyrion, I would seriously consider an escape plan or a good explanation-- this is the second time his advice resulted in near disaster and the guy next to him is plotting something.
 
She didn't torment, she crucified them. Along the roadside. That's meeting cruelty with cruelty. It's simply not justice. It's revenge. It's fucking insane.

As for the rest, TL;DR
STJ is a very warped individual who made it clear that any kind of slight needs to be mad with maximum violence. A very scary person. I hope he is just playing a character on the internet.
 
No matter what she does with King's Landing, Daenerys is up against a rock and a hard place. She wants to break the wheel, but how do you break a wheel without breaking anything? Westeros is such a moral, corrupt mess no matter what she does, there will be a backlash. The same people who are grateful to Cersei were the ones who rioted against her. It's too crazy.

Yup, the same type of complexity and moral ambiguity that made the show famous in the first place! I don't understand why people are suddenly freaking out.
 
Does she really want to break the wheel if her main aim is to gain the throne for herself?

I believe that is literally the entire point of her story arc. Will she blink or not in burning innocents?

I believe she will.

She didn't torment, she crucified them. Along the roadside. That's meeting cruelty with cruelty. It's simply not justice. It's revenge. It's fucking insane.

As for the rest, TL;DR

While we can argue that, the simple fact is that the Masters ordered the mass crucifixitioon of children as a way to intimidate people freeing slaves.

War is hell.
 
By whose standards are we calling people evil? I guess by in world morality, Dany is well on the good side to this point. Of all the people with a sense of entitlement to power, she is so far the best behaved.

By real world morality there isn’t much of anyone who can claim “Good”.
 
While we can argue that, the simple fact is that the Masters ordered the mass crucifixitioon of children as a way to intimidate people freeing slaves.

War is hell.

What you've just argued is that Dany is equally as ethical and terrible as the Masters. Not the sort of person I would want as a ruler.

Edited to add: I'm not saying that I think she should've let them go for their crimes, with a wag of the finger. Of course not. But, there's a difference between revenge and justice. Crucifixion is a terrible way to die, a terrible way to murder someone. That's revenge.

She could've tried and executed them. But, nope. She chose revenge. And cruelty.

Has she ever chosen leniency against an enemy? I believe every chance she has been given--like the Tarleys--she has chosen to be brutal and vengeful.
 
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