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Spoilers Game of Thrones: The Final Season

Feels like a noticeable shift in quality since they ran out of source material. Even if the broad strokes end up the same, the show hasn’t felt like it earned things in a while. Hope GRRM cuts the crap with delaying side projects and gets his last 2 books out so we can see his version.
 
Feels like a noticeable shift in quality since they ran out of source material. Even if the broad strokes end up the same, the show hasn’t felt like it earned things in a while. Hope GRRM cuts the crap with delaying side projects and gets his last 2 books out so we can see his version.

Honestly, the 4th book in the series wasn't great, and the 5th was nowhere near as good as the original trilogy. GRRM is still able to crank out nice character arcs, but seems to have completely lost the thread on the main plotline of the series.
 
Breath-taking piece of Television history right there. I love the fact the battle was dark and hard to follow because it made the whole thing feel more real. It was chaotic & bloody just like the world in Game of Thrones. Ayra killing the Night King was total bad ass and while I will be forever disappointed that Jon & The Night King never once drew swords upon each other, his over confidence got the best of him.

I do wish we got more story on the character and why he would put himself at such risk to kill Bran, why did it have to be him personally (Ego?). I always thought this show was really about the Army of the dead but clearly the real Endgame of Game of Thrones is what we were always told, Kings Landing and the Iron Throne.

I don't see how they can defeat Cersei? her entire army and the army of the North is all but gone. I heard a very interesting idea that the Iron Bank may actually betray Cersei and for now that is the only hope I can see for victory against the Mad Queen.

The ending to the Night King story is always going to split the fandom and the amount of whining I'm seeing is no surprise. People want their ending that they have built up in there heads for so long and I have no doubt we will see a very unhealthy amount of Sexism regarding Ayra being the one and not Jon.

Jon's real story is the Iron Throne and that is upon us.
 
It's entirely possible that the Living win the battle of Winterfell, but it's a gigantic feint on the part of the Night King, who instead travels via zombie-dragon to Kings Landing and proceeds to convert the entire population into White Walkers.

It is just as well that it was not Tywin's head that held the Crown of Ice, for he would have done exactly that, and passed Winterfell by, turning the surrounding populace as he went.

Ramsay Bolton, being even more cruel, would have lain siege--laughing like a Nazgul as the dothraki and unsullied turned one upon the other in a starven frenzy. He then would have raised the dead, only to leave them there--milling about the same prison in which he met his own end.

I thought Melisandre was going to remove her mask and be revealed as Syrio.

Bran **might** have escaped with Arya to Bravos, had the fight gone badly. There, the Night's King would have finished the Game in the temple of Death. This sense of completion was denied, in that the Night's King still had too much that was human about him, smiling after having basked in Drogon's flame. Perhaps there was even a bit of Dornish blood in him, as yet unfrozen (Ithaqua was not pleased).

To have true sangfroid, however--one must truly lose one's self--one's emotions. Something neither the King nor his assassin fully lost.

That was how Deep Blue bested Kasparov:

What is Deep Blue's secret? Grand master Yasser Seirawan put it most succinctly: "The machine has no fear." He did not just mean the obvious, that silicon cannot quake. He meant something deeper...The omniscient have no fear...Late in the game, Blue's king was under savage attack by Kasparov. Any human player under such assault by a world champion would be staring at his own king trying to figure out how to get away. Instead, Blue ignored the threat and quite nonchalantly went hunting for lowly pawns at the other end of the board....It could return from its pawn-picking expedition and destroy Kasparov exactly one move before Kasparov could destroy it. Which it did. http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,135544,00.html

She used the dagger that Bran gave to her in the exact same spot where she would use the dagger. Did Bran know? I think he did. It's almost like he saw 14 million possible outcomes and only one where the good guys win.

Exactly. Bran **did** give himself over fully, and was thus unscathed.
He, not the Night King, was DEEP BLUE.

__________________________________________________________________________

Still, there is a part of me that wonders if we have really seen the last of the Night's King. The Mountain, after all, seems to exist in a state Coleridge called "life-in-death."

Perhaps he will be a vessel for some kind of return.

As for the ending....

The "Clegane bowl" wasn't to be denied of course, and this episode --perhaps the finest 90 minutes in all television--"ended as it must."

Of course it was to be Arya who shattered the plans of the dead.

We saw a little "Red October" in the murk of the purga above, as kings made battle in the air. We saw THE FOG of John Carpenter, and a little of THE WALKING DEAD in the Stark Library. We even got a taste of A.C. Clarke, where the flames of the dothraki winked out one by one, as did the stars themselves in THE NINE BILLION NAMES OF GOD.

Poor Jorah. He somehow escaped the absorption of "his light, his heat"(to quote from one of Laird Barron's tales) into the gloom, only to fall at the last.

He was at least cradled by the one he loved and served best--and received affection, which is all he ever really wanted, but "too late, too late."

I doubt my own death will be a tenth that noble.

For all we know, the Night King will appear--kill Theon, and then sit down for a long chat with Bran as the battle rages around them.

Half right. I would have loved to have seen that. "Let me sing you a song of Ice and Fire."

Bring in Daario Naheris and the Second Sons to counter the Golden Company!

No--the new army will come from Dorne. The Ice has had its day. Time for the fire of the sands, as Cersi's hourglass drains.

Did they do one of those 20 minute behind-the-scenes features for this week? Can't find it on YouTube.

There is a 40 minute special On Demand. There we learn one of the wights (the one that looked for Arya under the table) is Spanish performer Javier Botet, who is triple-jointed:
https://ew.com/movies/2018/09/07/javier-botet-slender-man-mara/

I only really noticed his gaunt frame in the special, however.
 
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But the white walkers are a once in a 1000 year threat. It comes, is defeated, and doesn't matter again for millennia (or perhaps in this case never will again). But who sits on the throne is MUCH more important to the lives the people of Westeros will be leading AFTER the threat is gone, and will matter for generations. This is the part that happens AFTER the hero is done, the "What next?" and FOR ME, that makes the stakes so much higher. I always knew the Night King would be defeated. I have NO IDEA who will end up on the iron throne.
Even if the white walkers come once every thousand years, it's their survival. That's huge! And, I think this one was supposed to be worse than normal too.

I have the opposite view. Who cares who wins the throne this round. Wait a little bit and it'll be someone else. The winner of that game is so transient that it's not really that meaningful.

It would've actually been interesting to see that short term game playing mindset go head to head against the white walkers. Let their squabbles spillover and really damage them as the WWs approach. Highlight the folly of such short term thinking and playing of games when survival is on the line. Play that theme up. Or, maybe force them to rush to finish the game by installing a ruler in place of Cersei in time to deal with their survival. Actually, that sounds pretty intense.

We'll have to see where they go from here. But dealing with Cersei and seeing who wins the throne feels like small potatoes after this.
 
In terms of the arc, even though the Night King wasn't the big bad, he wasn't pointless. Basically Jon only became a commander due to the threat the Night King provided. Without it he would have stayed a rather low-ranking member of the Night's Watch for years to come, perhaps eventually rising the ranks as he aged. Even if Sam somehow discovered his true parentage, he would just shrug it off, because Jon really isn't a guy who wants power. Instead he's the textbook case of a "reluctant leader." Put more simply, facing the Night King allowed for him to level up and actually seriously consider whether he would - in fact - be kingly material.

Of course, this is presuming that he ends up King - or at least puts an heir in Dany's belly. If he ends up dying in the final conflict with Cercei, I think it's harder to argue that the White Walker plot was meaningful. Though he still would have been integral to defeating the menace.

Even if the white walkers come once every thousand years, it's their survival. That's huge! And, I think this one was supposed to be worse than normal too.

I have the opposite view. Who cares who wins the throne this round. Wait a little bit and it'll be someone else. The winner of that game is so transient that it's not really that meaningful.

It would've actually been interesting to see that short term game playing mindset go head to head against the white walkers. Let their squabbles spillover and really damage them as the WWs approach. Highlight the folly of such short term thinking and playing of games when survival is on the line. Play that theme up. Or, maybe force them to rush to finish the game by installing a ruler in place of Cersei in time to deal with their survival. Actually, that sounds pretty intense.

We'll have to see where they go from here. But dealing with Cersei and seeing who wins the throne feels like small potatoes after this.

That's why this is a good place to leave the story at the moment, IMHO. I mean, Cersei could "win" and I would be totally okay with that from a meta perspective. Westeros deals with a shite ruler for another 20-30 years - as it has in the past - and rolls the dice again with her heir. That the stakes are not apocalyptic means you could actually see D & D going through with it.
 
That's exactly what I didn't get: First of all, why should the Night King make the first move - is he going to beam himself over the whole army of both sides just to get to Bran's side? (Why have an epic battle in the first hand?) So, Daeny and Jon did have time for a first sweep over the Undead, they didn't have to just sit around and do nothing.
Yes, exactly! And, while the living had a good reason to go after the Night King, the NK didn't really have a similar reason to prioritize Bran. Killing Bran doesn't stop the army of the living! And, he really wasn't that useful to the living anyway. And, the NK could've just let his vast hordes overrun Bran as they were overrunning everything else.

I'm also not sure why the Dothraki even went out in the first place - why not wait for the Undead to come to them and/or work only with the catapults (and dragons)?

That's a good question and I think the only answer is that it made a good "movie moment" with all of their flaming swords going out. But, strategically, you couldn't expect any other outcome really. You're wasting them. At least send them in with air support.

Bran wasn't used... we see him using the ravens, but to what effect? Why not send a message to the Night King? Some kind of "look, here I am"? Anything but just sit around. He even could have somehow distracted the Night King with a powerful vision/whatever to mask Arya's arrival...
I really get the sense that they did not know what do with the character of Bran. He's got all of these powers and abilities, but he doesn't use them. He sits around being mysterious and occasionally spouts some plot exposition.
 
Dany had a vision. The throne of swords covered in snow, and King's Landing a wreck. Does she want to be Queen...of nothing?

Jon may become an independent King of the North, and/or heading a new Night's Watch.

Now to see what the Sellsword does.
 
I always felt the white walkers would be dealt with separately. I just would have liked to have know a little more about them. I get the feeling maybe this isn't the end of their story even if it's an end to their actual threat.

Nice battle but early morning would have been better to see more of it clearly. I guess budget made it happen at night to hide the TV CG effects.
 
Did everyone miss that due to the ice/snow being kicked around Dany and Jon could not see the signal from Davos to light the trenches and start the attack? I think some could do with another viewing. You also have to balance actual military strategy with what is more dramatic. I personally loved seeing everyone get hyped up from the sword lighting.........then to slowly watch every single point of light disappear. Thought they did an amazing job of slowly, constantly building up the pressure and the stakes. Everyone (including Kit) thought that Jon would be THE ONE to kill the Night King. I thought it was a nice change of pace to see Jon just struggling to survive.
 
I thought they did an amazing job with this episode and really enjoyed it for the most part. The action scenes were tremendous and I particularly liked Theon's last stand. But I thought it was hurt by the ending and the choices that were made.

One, the threat just ended and was completely done with once the Night King was killed. All that build-up over seven years and it's just ends. Probably without much a long-term effect to the Realm. When the White Walker menace can't get past Winterfell, then it wasn't much of a threat to begin with.

Also, I wasn't a fan of Arya being the one who killed the Night King. It should have been Jon. If not Jon, then Dany. D and D constantly undercut Jon and neuter him during these kind of battles. In the Battle of the Bastards, Sansa inexplicably refuses to tell him about Littlefinger's army, forcing Jon to go into the battle blind. They are not surprisingly overrun by Ramsay's forces until the men of the Vale show up to save the day (which seems to happen with every battle on TV and the movies). Jon doesn't play a major role in resolving the battle, which everyone involved in GOT makes clear by pointing out that Sansa won the battle. Then against the Dead, Jon contributes very little and isn't the one to slay the Night King. He's pretty much the main character on the show and one of the three main characters in the book. He was brought back to life after being killed and for what? To be moved around like a pawn with no agency by other characters? To give Sansa and Arya "grrrl power" as a way for D and D to apologize for all the rape scenes they had in the first couple of seasons?

Jon is the central character of this storyline but when the major moments come, he is basically a non-factor who contributes little to the overall conflict expect to be moved from place to place by other characters.

I have no doubt in the books that the battle against the Dead will be the main conflict and that Arya won't be the one to end it. But then again, we are NEVER going to see those books because GRRM is an undisciplined writer gone to excess who has lost complete interest in writing this story.
 
So, outside of TV logic, is there any reason at all to expect Bran, Sansa, or Sam to actually travel with Jon and Dany's forces to Kings Landing? Seems like they should be holed up in Winterfell rebuilding it until the epilogue.
 
Jon is the central character of this storyline but when the major moments come, he is basically a non-factor who contributes little to the overall conflict expect to be moved from place to place by other characters.

Jon's real story is about the Iron Throne, that was all but confirmed when he was revealed to be the rightful heir to the throne. His greatest strength is the unity of others because without that then they all would of died.
 
I guess budget made it happen at night to hide the TV CG effects.

Battle of the Bastards looked pretty good to me in the daylight no trouble hiding "TV CG effects" there........More than anything they shot in Ireland during the part of the year where there's 18 hours of dark and 6 hours of light. You got a LOT more filming done filming at night versus trying to film it during the very short days.
 
I thought it was a nice change of pace to see Jon just struggling to survive.

That was pretty much the same ending from THE RELIC.

Jon masterminded the whole of the war, so I don't see him neutered at all.

Seems like they should be holed up in Winterfell rebuilding it until the epilogue.

I'm not sure it can be rebuilt. The huge task of burying all those corpses? Maybe Drogon can eat them.

better hope for more grrl power--and hope Drogon is preggers--otherwise..no more dragons.
 
Battle of the Bastards looked pretty good to me in the daylight no trouble hiding "TV CG effects" there........More than anything they shot in Ireland during the part of the year where there's 18 hours of dark and 6 hours of light. You got a LOT more filming done filming at night versus trying to film it during the very short days.

The complaints I'm seeing about the whole night issue and the snow/blizzard...

He's called The Night King! and leads a race of Ice White Warriors who live in freezing conditions.

It seems pretty obvious the dude would choose the night to attack you and use the forces of Winter to his advantage.
 
That's why this is a good place to leave the story at the moment, IMHO. I mean, Cersei could "win" and I would be totally okay with that from a meta perspective. Westeros deals with a shite ruler for another 20-30 years - as it has in the past - and rolls the dice again with her heir. That the stakes are not apocalyptic means you could actually see D & D going through with it.
Yep, that would be par for the course for Westeros. Her remaining the ruler would be as surprising as any of the other characters because most everyone is expecting she will fall. Fast forward a bit and whoever it is will be replaced with someone else. No biggie. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

I wish they had gone the route of where the white walkers force the acceleration of plans to win the game of thrones. Cersei was unwilling to fight the WWs. Make it so someone has to beat her in time to face off against the WWs. That makes both plot points important. The desperation of removing Cersei followed by the desperation to stave off the dead.

But, maybe, hopefully, there are still surprises in store. Surprises other than just who takes the throne at the end.

One more thought. Thinking about who could take the throne, if Game of Thrones remains true to itself, it can't be someone naïve like Ned. So, not Brienne or Jon. They'd be eaten up alive because they have zero political skills. It's got to be someone like Cersei who can navigate that environment. I don't think Dany is up to the task. Tyriol or Varys would have the political skills I think. Sansa is learning them. I don't think she's in the same league but she could be the surprise winner I suppose. Her experiences at least provide some guidance and she's grown in that area. Each character seems to have a purpose for their arc, and that might be hers.

I don't know who it would be, but those are the lines I'd think along. We see what it takes to win the throne, it shouldn't be different this time.
 
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