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Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discuss

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Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

I liked the episode and personally think it was better than Blackwater. It had nice explosion and all but when the battle got to land it was meh).

I didn't like seeing a few good familiar faces go but it was nice finally getting to see what defenses the Wall had, besides a great vantage point and a spiffy horn. The balistas, the bombs, and that "sai" they dropped worked wonderfully. Even against mammoths and giants, which are no longer a myth in Westeros (I'm sure ravens were sent). Even the ending kept pace with Jon heading north beyond the wall.

I am curious how they are going to top it in the finale.
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

Dropping a couple of pics.

The giants and mammoths rocked.
picture.php


And I would hate the kid, if he didn't look so awesome afterwards.
picture.php
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

Savage Dragon said:
How many shipyards do you think the Wildings have north of the wall?
Click to expand...
As many as they'd want while planning an invasion? Not that they'd need to, since the Wall is never shown to be particularly thick. Each troop only have to swim for a minute or two if they were going around, assuming they didn't just build a large number of ferried skiffs or something to accomplish the same job without having to step foot into the water.

Uncle Sol said:
Small parties of Wildling probably do manage to sneak around either side of the wall just as some manage to climb over it. Groups of thousands would be much more difficult when they could attack Castle Black, take the gate, and pass through.
Click to expand...
Castle Black is the only one with a tunnel? How do guys from the other two keeps get through for scouting and maintenance?

Eastwatch-by-the-Sea is depicted as having several galleys and warships to defend that side of the wall. To the west the mountains and the Gorge provide some natural defence to the Shadow Tower.
Click to expand...
Galleys and warships that would be theirs for the taking, making their invasion force even stronger? Especially since they already seemed to suspect that they greatly outnumbered the Crows. Castle Black doesn't really offer much of anything except, maybe, a shortcut. But that would be a shortcut that would be even easier to take if they already has Eastwatch and could freely send men to attack from the other side, instead of the, what, two dozen men they had who almost took Castle Black on their own?

It's even more confounding since they clearly had scouts with the see-through-animal-eyes at their disposal who should have easily been able to gather accurate numbers of their forces.
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

FPAlpha said:
Still a very solid action episode but somehow i don't get these tactics.. if Mance outnumbers them a thousand to one why not rush them full force, tire them out and blow past the wall? The only reason i can imagine is that his numbers are exaggerated too but if not it doesn't make sense (and yeah.. i'm talking about realism in a fantasy show :p).
Click to expand...

I found it a bit odd myself, the fighting felt like it just stopped rather than the first wave being quelled. Especially as they seemed so outnumbered.
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

Even outnumbered, they're heavily fortified and Mance is going to want those fortifications in a reasonable state to repair when the white walkers inevitable catch up to them. Blowing through their defenses in a brute force rush would be very costly and might risk fracturing the wildling alliances.
Also, he's not stupid. He's also going to want to make sure he has enough people left to effectively hold the wall once he's taken it. Even if he intends to keep heading south, at least in the short term they're going to need to use Castle Black as a staging area, launch point and a fall-back position if King's Landing finally wakes up and realises what's going on.

So yeah, I personally found the all-action, single story episode to be a nice change of pace from all the usual darting around and it was so good to see the Battle of Helms Deep again. :p
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

^I don't think Mance would use the castle as a staging area. The wildlings would probably enjoy the outdoors more and with their shear numbers, that small castle would be a hindrance.
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

At one point in the Wildling army they show a guy with white eyes who blinks and gets normal eyes. I thought it was a decapitated White Walker head until he blinked. What was that supposed to be?
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

Mister Fandango said:
Savage Dragon said:
How many shipyards do you think the Wildings have north of the wall?
Click to expand...
As many as they'd want while planning an invasion? Not that they'd need to, since the Wall is never shown to be particularly thick. Each troop only have to swim for a minute or two if they were going around, assuming they didn't just build a large number of ferried skiffs or something to accomplish the same job without having to step foot into the water.
Click to expand...
Your strategy would seem to involve a lot of hypothermia. I suspect swimming isn't a common skill among wildlings.
Uncle Sol said:
Small parties of Wildling probably do manage to sneak around either side of the wall just as some manage to climb over it. Groups of thousands would be much more difficult when they could attack Castle Black, take the gate, and pass through.
Click to expand...
Castle Black is the only one with a tunnel? How do guys from the other two keeps get through for scouting and maintenance?
Click to expand...
I can't recall with 100% confidence, but I believe Castle Black is the only one that hasn't been filled in at this point (That they know of).
Eastwatch-by-the-Sea is depicted as having several galleys and warships to defend that side of the wall. To the west the mountains and the Gorge provide some natural defence to the Shadow Tower.
Click to expand...
Galleys and warships that would be theirs for the taking, making their invasion force even stronger? Especially since they already seemed to suspect that they greatly outnumbered the Crows. Castle Black doesn't really offer much of anything except, maybe, a shortcut. But that would be a shortcut that would be even easier to take if they already has Eastwatch and could freely send men to attack from the other side, instead of the, what, two dozen men they had who almost took Castle Black on their own?

It's even more confounding since they clearly had scouts with the see-through-animal-eyes at their disposal who should have easily been able to gather accurate numbers of their forces.
Click to expand...
You assume Wildlings have any knowledge of or inclination towards attacking ships in freezing-cold water, and also that any of them know how to sail.

You also assume they know anything about strategy or tactics on this scale. This is a barely-united confederation of barbarians and cannibals and other misfits of the frozen north, not a trained army.
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

Mister Fandango said:
Savage Dragon said:
How many shipyards do you think the Wildings have north of the wall?
Click to expand...
As many as they'd want while planning an invasion? Not that they'd need to, since the Wall is never shown to be particularly thick. Each troop only have to swim for a minute or two if they were going around, assuming they didn't just build a large number of ferried skiffs or something to accomplish the same job without having to step foot into the water.

Uncle Sol said:
Small parties of Wildling probably do manage to sneak around either side of the wall just as some manage to climb over it. Groups of thousands would be much more difficult when they could attack Castle Black, take the gate, and pass through.
Click to expand...
Castle Black is the only one with a tunnel? How do guys from the other two keeps get through for scouting and maintenance?

Eastwatch-by-the-Sea is depicted as having several galleys and warships to defend that side of the wall. To the west the mountains and the Gorge provide some natural defence to the Shadow Tower.
Click to expand...
Galleys and warships that would be theirs for the taking, making their invasion force even stronger? Especially since they already seemed to suspect that they greatly outnumbered the Crows. Castle Black doesn't really offer much of anything except, maybe, a shortcut. But that would be a shortcut that would be even easier to take if they already has Eastwatch and could freely send men to attack from the other side, instead of the, what, two dozen men they had who almost took Castle Black on their own?

It's even more confounding since they clearly had scouts with the see-through-animal-eyes at their disposal who should have easily been able to gather accurate numbers of their forces.
Click to expand...

All good points Mister Fandango.

Somethings do not get translated from book to screen.
The Shadow Tower does get attacked before the attack on Castle Black as a distraction to lure the Night's Watch away from Castle Black.

The exact number of forces or the defences at either end of the wall are not know as far as I know. Although Castle Black did lose troops at the Fist of the First Men and again at Craster's Keep. Perhaps at this point Castle Black was the least guarded?

Some others things to consider:

  • What we are seeing is not a Wildling invasion but a diaspora. They have fighters sure, but they would also young children and the elderly. Basically vulnerable people they do not want to die because...

  • The Others are coming. In fact we've seen groups of them close to the Wall already. The Wildling refugees have to move fast or risk an attack.

  • The different groups of refugees are are likely to kill each other first before the Others get to them so time is even less on their side

Taking Castle Black makes the most strategic sense. Better to attack the middle and go through than trap yourself against mountains to the west or the water to the east.

There are more reasons, but that would involve getting into spoiler territory.
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

<<At one point in the Wildling army they show a guy with white eyes who blinks and gets normal eyes. I thought it was a decapitated White Walker head until he blinked. What was that supposed to be? >> <<Warg>>

Ah, ok. It was funny that they just did two quick shots of this guy without any explanation like that. So he was controlling a raven or something to scout ahead? Why didn't they show us that? Or show him communicating what he was seeing to the army?
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

They did show us. He was warging into an owl.
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

Mr Light said:
<<At one point in the Wildling army they show a guy with white eyes who blinks and gets normal eyes. I thought it was a decapitated White Walker head until he blinked. What was that supposed to be? >> <<Warg>>

Ah, ok. It was funny that they just did two quick shots of this guy without any explanation like that. So he was controlling a raven or something to scout ahead? Why didn't they show us that? Or show him communicating what he was seeing to the army?
Click to expand...

ITL said:
They did show us. He was warging into an owl.
Click to expand...

Yes. We saw an owl land on the wall or in the castle and look around. Then we saw the owl's point of view of what was going on. Then they cut to the warg with his eyes blank to show us he was seeing thru the owl's eyes.
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

Aaaaah ok. Since I didn't know who that guy was, the two events did not connect for me. But still, why not show the guy reporting, hey there's hardly anybody up there!
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

The Warg is also shown with his owl when the Thens first meet up with the Wildlings who climbed over the wall. Tormund asks their leader how they snuck up on them and he points to the Warg who has his owl with him.
 
Re: Game of Thrones 4.9 - "The Watchers on the Wall" - Rate and discus

I got the jist that the attack was Mance testing the walls defence's - so he knew exactly what he was going up against. If they managed to break into the tunne and get the initial party through, that would have been a bonus.

But now he's 100% aware of what they might throw back at him.
 
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