Game of Thrones 4.5 - "First of His Name" - Rate and discuss

[Reverend]

Yeah, Cersei is only dangerous in that she's a wealthy person with a mean streak a mile wide. It's the same danger posed by a petulant and self obsessed child with a loaded gun. Potentially lethal if you happen to be standing in the wrong place, but there's nothing subtle about her and she doesn't have the awareness to see beyond her own personal little world.

Joffrey was basically Cersei turned up to 11 and with none of the social restrictions that comes with being a woman in this world that may have (outwardly) tempered her somewhat. I don't remember if it's been mentioned in the series, but I recall in the books that as a child she used to physically torture Tyrion as a newborn. That's seriously, grade-a messed up sadism.

 

[Mister Fandango]

Didn't she arrange for Robert's death, and did so without anyone ever officially even suspecting her of engaging in foul play? I'd say taking out a popular king, making it look like an accident, and eliminating any threat of reprisal for doing so is a bit more of a notch up from anything Joffrey did.

 

[Venardhi]

Robert's death was just dumb luck. All she arranged was for him to be slightly more drunk than normal in an already risky situation.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Robert's death was just dumb luck. All she arranged was for him to be slightly more drunk than normal in an already risky situation.

He placed himself in risky situations regularly. If her plan hadn't worked that time, she could have kept at it until it did. Using a subtle ploy that can be reused until you get the outcome you want rather than a bold ploy that puts everything on the line is a smart play. That's not to say she's always smart and/or subtle, but she was in that instance.

 

[diankra]

Cersei doesn't need to directly kill people. Saying she has a bark but no bite seriously underestimates her cunning. She's a woman trying to cling to the top in a man's world, and she's not doing a terrible job at it.

I beg to differ.

She's a mean and vindictive person but she's no master leader like Tywin Lannister.

She let Joffrey get away from under her control which sparked the entire war.

She alienated potential allies for personal reasons.

She basically has no power to speak of as soon as someone with actual power shows up such as Tywin. She has no power where it really matters and she is no master schemer like Littlefinger or Varys who have no open power but are pulling the strings from behind the scene.

She's in over her head when it comes to far reaching decisions and her pettiness often enough made enemies where the right word at the right time could make allies (even if she may have despised them in secret).

Bingo. Cersei thinks she's this master politician when she's far from it.

Cersei is good at tactics, not strategy. As in winning battles and losing wars.

 

[Reverend]

Indeed. Getting Robert killed was an end unto itself, not a part of a larger plan beyond riding her of a husband she'd grown to resent and getting her first born on the throne. She had no plan for what happened next, just assumed that everything would be better once her immediate obstacle was removed. In short, she's cunning, but not very clever. A shallow thinker and an amateur player at best.

 

[Brendan Moody]

Without disagreeing with the larger point: Robert's death at that specific moment was forced on Cersei by Ned's ultimatum to flee before he revealed the incest. (Hence Varys' line about his mercy killing the king.) In fact, the books reveal that she had hoped to wait longer before getting rid of him, so she could deal with Stannis and Renly first.

 

[Forbin]

Oh is that what the books reveal?

 

[Brendan Moody]

Yes, it is. I know it bugs you to see details from the books mentioned, but since that isn't a universal perspective, I suppose you'll just have to keep your at the ready.

 

[Reverend]

Even if it wasn't made explicit in the show (I honestly don't recall one way or the other) it doesn't take much in the way of deduction to see that was the inference in the timing of Robert's death.

It still illustrates her limitations in this regard; she's reactionary. She didn't see it coming that another Hand of the King would discover her children's true parentage. More than that both she and Jamie had clearly become careless as it appears at least four people discovered their secret within a year or so.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Yeah, she has a hard time seeing past the immediate moment. She doesn't play the game as well as Tywin, Littlefinger or Varys. She thinks she's awesome at it, but, no...

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Cersei's big miscalculation was thinking that Joffrey could be controlled.

 

[Klaus]

^^by her, anyhow. Tywin had him pretty well in hand because even J realized he was the real power. Cersei's problem is that as Queen Regent she wasn't really as powerful as being Queen, but didn't realize it.

One wonders if Tywin would have been able to stop Ned's execution if he'd been there, for example...

 

[Captaindemotion]

I think Tywin would have stopped it, not out of decency or compassion but because he wouldn't want to go to war with the North. I think even if Tyrion had been there as acting Hand, he'd have stopped it also.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Tywin absolutely would have stopped it because triggering a war with the North was not at all in his family's interest. Ned would have taken the Black and gone to the Wall and then Tywin could have focused on Stannis and Renly.

 

[Evil Twin]

Tywin absolutely would have stopped it because triggering a war with the North was not at all in his family's interest. Ned would have taken the Black and gone to the Wall and then Tywin could have focused on Stannis and Renly.

So how many other first-time readers/watchers here were thinking, moments Joffrey called for Ned's head, "Oh hey, this isn't so bad, now that that unpleasant confession is out of the way, Ned'll go up to the Wall, take the Black, be reunited with Jon, and father and son can kick some Wildling ass toget-- Oh, fuuuuuuuuuuuck...."

 

[Captaindemotion]

^Me. I thought the execution would be a set-up to make Ned cower in fear and humiliate himself. I was expecting a 1930s style reveal that Ser Illyn had pulled the blow short at the last second.

 

[bbjeg]

Didn't she arrange for Robert's death, and did so without anyone ever officially even suspecting her of engaging in foul play? I'd say taking out a popular king, making it look like an accident, and eliminating any threat of reprisal for doing so is a bit more of a notch up from anything Joffrey did.

I don't think she had anything to do with Robert's death. I'd believe Littlefinger or Eddard (by giving him too much milk-of-the-poppy) killed Robert before I believe Cersei did it.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Didn't she arrange for Robert's death, and did so without anyone ever officially even suspecting her of engaging in foul play? I'd say taking out a popular king, making it look like an accident, and eliminating any threat of reprisal for doing so is a bit more of a notch up from anything Joffrey did.

I don't think she had anything to do with Robert's death. I'd believe Littlefinger or Eddard (by giving him too much milk-of-the-poppy) killed Robert before I believe Cersei did it.

But she was responsible for his life threatening injury. She made sure he was good and drunk before hunting boar.

 

[Reverend]

Didn't she arrange for Robert's death, and did so without anyone ever officially even suspecting her of engaging in foul play? I'd say taking out a popular king, making it look like an accident, and eliminating any threat of reprisal for doing so is a bit more of a notch up from anything Joffrey did.

I don't think she had anything to do with Robert's death. I'd believe Littlefinger or Eddard (by giving him too much milk-of-the-poppy) killed Robert before I believe Cersei did it.

But she was responsible for his life threatening injury. She made sure he was good and drunk before hunting boar.

Indeed. At that point it didn't matter who gave him the opiate that put him to sleep, the wound was mortal and it was just a matter of how long he'd take to croak.

Tywin absolutely would have stopped it because triggering a war with the North was not at all in his family's interest. Ned would have taken the Black and gone to the Wall and then Tywin could have focused on Stannis and Renly.

I don't disagree with the logic, but countermanding the King in front of a crowd of people like that might not be such a good idea. Sure, a war with the North would be (and was) disastrous for all concerned, but openly undermining the crown would make the King appear weak and risked an open insurrection closer to home.

In hindsight maybe Tywin would have orchestrated things a little better behind the scenes so it never came to it, but once the King openly calls for a person's head, it's all a bit academic.