Game of Thrones 4.3 - "Breaker of Chains" - Rate and discuss

[QCzar]

I can't think of any gratuitous violence (if we discount this scene as an example of gratuitous sexual violence) on the show, but there is a certainly a lot of gratuitous sex and nudity, mostly in brothel scenes... and the problem I have with them is that they are taking up precious screentime that could have been used better. But I feel the same about the gratuitous and repetitive scenes of people snarking at each other in King's Landing. I liked the first scene between Littlefinger and Varys back in season 1, but then next time they had a scene together, in the season 1 finale, I was thinking: "So, what did we find out? That they're rivals, that Varys is a eunuch, and LF is an asshole. Eh, we already knew all that. "

Brothel scenes and snark scenes the show's favorite ways to insert filler, and filler is the last thing the show needs. For instance, in season 3 they managed to drag out King's Landing even though nothing much was happening there, while completely sidelining Catelyn in the season whose high point was the Red Wedding.

Like I said, it runs the entire spectrum. The show is good, great even, but since it was made by humans it's far from perfect. Following on the point about the palette, I too tend to think that KL is a hue the show runners tend to lather on pretty thick.

It's important to remember though that, for the moment at least (and for most of S3), it's also home to most of the title characters and the most elaborate and (likely) expensive sets. It follows that, as they go from say Sansa to Cersei to Tyrion to Tywin to whoeverthefuckelse is in town they'll spend a fair amount of time there. There's almost as many major characters there as all the others combined.

I think they could do with making some of them less major (most of them aren't doing anything anyway, except talking). IMO, it's the least interesting place in all the Seven Kingdoms and the less time spent there the better. In a way, King's Landing is the most annoying character on the show.

 

[sidious618]

I don't find nudity in the show to be a problem, but I do have an issue with the way it's shot, as if we're supposed to be ogling the prostitutes and women in general.

 

[Skywalker]

I'll admit, I've started losing faith a bit in Benioff and Weiss. When they just adapt scenes from the books they seem to 'get' those pretty well, but then when they try to make up their own material it never quite seems like it fits in. I actually think Bryan Cogman might be the best writer on the show right now. I wish he'd do more episodes.

 

[davejames]

Man, you guys are just no fun at all. I have no problem whatsoever with the sex and nudity on this show, and think it does a nice job giving us a break now and then from the dark and gloom and politics of the rest of the show.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I suppose the sex gets a bit silly when so few of the main characters are having it. I get the suspicion the reason they sexed up Oberyn's storyline is because without that, there wouldn't be much sex going on at all. Actually, it's kind of funny to think about the sex situation on this show, storyline by storyline:

* Cersei was having sex with Lancel but I don't think they feel like showing that again.
* Jaime raped Cersei which I would not count as sex because it's not, you know, erotic (to sane people.) He wouldn't be having sex with anyone else.
* Robb's dead. No more sex scenes with him and Talisa.
* Dany's too busy freeing slaves to have sex with her handmaidens, but maybe something will happen with Jorah, Selmy, and/or Daario. Poor Grey Worm is left out.
* Jon Snow's opportunities for sex are now severely limited since he's not among the Wildlings anymore.
* Gilly obviously wants Samwell but is America ready for a really fat guy to have sex on camera?
* Tywin? I don't believe the man's ever had sex.
* Tyrion's main source of tail is supposedly on a boat bound for Pentos, and he wouldn't touch Sansa because she's a kid, and now she's gone anyway.
* Maybe Littlefinger will start creeping on Sansa real hard, but if that turns into sex scenes, that'd be pretty fucked up, even by this show's standards. Funny how he's never had an actual sex scene where he, himself, is engaged, though. Saving himself for those Tully women, you see. He's also away from his brothel so you don't get the scenes with him there anymore.
* Sex would be totally inappropriate in the Arya/Hound storyline unless they maybe stumble across other people having it. Then the Hound has to sit Arya down to have "the talk" in a scene everyone will be talking about.
* The scenes with the random Wildlings (plus the handful we do know) could contain sex but it'd probably be rape, so no.
* I don't think Bran's getting any.
* Varys is Varys.
* Stannis having sex with anyone is pretty unpleasant to watch, as we all learned in season 2.
* You know Davos would be real nice in bed, though. Did we ever meet his wife?
* Theon--I mean Reek--is incapable at this point. Yara, though...
* Oberyn's giving us some healthy doses of sex this season, and he may have to carry that "burden" for a while.
* Margaery is of age but Joffrey wasn't, and if she marries Tommen then... still nothing. Sex with kids is one thing this show won't do.

Wow, so yeah, that is a lot of characters and storylines, most of which have little room for sex except in the background, and for others it would be wildly inappropriate, even offensive.

I don't have any problem with sex in TV shows in general, though. Sometimes this show just shoehorns it in in rather silly ways.

 

[DevilEyes]

* Tyrion's main source of tail is supposedly on a boat bound for Pentos, and he wouldn't touch Sansa because she's a kid, and now she's gone anyway.

Not so much because she's a kid, more because she's a kid who's been forced to marry him and really, really doesn't want to have sex with him, and raping her is something he can't do even in the books, where he's far less saintly than in the show.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Poor Grey Worm is left out.

Not necessarily!

Although it sorta seems like Daario is the guy looking for Daeny at this point. Maybe it won't happen because she liked the first actor who played him better.

 

[danellis]

* Tyrion's main source of tail is supposedly on a boat bound for Pentos, and he wouldn't touch Sansa because she's a kid, and now she's gone anyway.
* Maybe Littlefinger will start creeping on Sansa real hard, but if that turns into sex scenes, that'd be pretty fucked up,

Sophie Turner's 17/18, so nothing wrong with that per se, how old's Sansa supposed to be?

Spoiler

Well, that didn't work. Would someone tell me how to put in spoiler tags, please?

 

[Brendan Moody]

The first tag needs an equals sign and a description of what it's a spoiler for. Like this, minus the exclamation points: [!spoiler=Name of spoiler]spoiler text which will be hidden[/!spoiler].

This exchange from an interview with "Blackwater" director Neil Marshall may be of interest to those debating the show's use of sex scenes and other nudity:

Empire: I have a question about the nudity. We didn’t bring this up with George when he was here, but obviously it’s kind of become a thing in pop culture—the amount of nudity and “sexposition” scenes in Game of Thrones. You have a sexposition scene in this. Can you talk about that? [Laughter] What’s your position on sexposition?
It was pretty surreal. I’d not done anything like that in my films before. But the weirdest part was when you have one of the exec producers leaning over your shoulder, going, “You can go full frontal, you know. [Laughter] This is television—you can do whatever you want! And do it! I urge you to do it.” So I was like, “Okay, well, if you—you’re the boss.”

So they’re not worried, they’re not trying to pull back on it?
Not in the slightest, no, no. This particular exec took me to one side and said, “Look, I represent the pervert side of the audience, okay? Everybody else is the serious drama side—I represent the perv side of the audience, and I’m saying I want full frontal nudity in this scene.” So you go ahead and do it.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ I thought I was the only person on the BBS who can never get the spoiler code to work!

 

[DevilEyes]

* Tyrion's main source of tail is supposedly on a boat bound for Pentos, and he wouldn't touch Sansa because she's a kid, and now she's gone anyway.
* Maybe Littlefinger will start creeping on Sansa real hard, but if that turns into sex scenes, that'd be pretty fucked up,

Sophie Turner's 17/18, so nothing wrong with that per se, how old's Sansa supposed to be?

Nothing wrong with what exactly?*

She's supposed to be 14 or 15 at this point in the show (she was 14 during her wedding, but may have turned 15 since) - probably 15 since she was 13 at this point in the books, and in the show she's two years older.

*I mean, if you mean "hitting on her in general" I can understand the question, but since we're talking about 1) whether it would have been wrong for a dude to have sex with her because she was forced to marry him by her captors, even though she really doesn't want to marry him or have sex with him - i.e. if it would have been OK to rape her (which he's not a creep enough to do), and 2) whether it would be wrong for a dude to practically kidnap her and put her in a situation where she is dependent on him for her life, and then try to have sex with her - i.e. again, to rape her... the answer doesn't depend on her age.

And we've just spent a few pages talking about rape...

 

[777]

Wow.....one minute GoT is hailed as one of the best things ever, now all of a sudden to everyone, it is one of the worst abominations put on TV and D&D are the devil incarnate?

ffs.....

 

[chrisspringob]

* Tyrion's main source of tail is supposedly on a boat bound for Pentos, and he wouldn't touch Sansa because she's a kid, and now she's gone anyway.
* Maybe Littlefinger will start creeping on Sansa real hard, but if that turns into sex scenes, that'd be pretty fucked up,

Sophie Turner's 17/18, so nothing wrong with that per se, how old's Sansa supposed to be?

Nothing wrong with what exactly?*

She's supposed to be 14 or 15 at this point in the show (she was 14 during her wedding, but may have turned 15 since) - probably 15 since she was 13 at this point in the books, and in the show she's two years older.

*I mean, if you mean "hitting on her in general" I can understand the question, but since we're talking about 1) whether it would have been wrong for a dude to have sex with her because she was forced to marry him by her captors, even though she really doesn't want to marry him or have sex with him - i.e. if it would have been OK to rape her (which he's not a creep enough to do), and 2) whether it would be wrong for a dude to practically kidnap her and put her in a situation where she is dependent on him for her life, and then try to have sex with her - i.e. again, to rape her... the answer doesn't depend on her age.

And we've just spent a few pages talking about rape...

I'm not danellis, so I don't know if this is what he was talking about, but I would distinguish between things that that characters in the show might do, that would be wrong, but that the writers are perfectly happy to include in the scripts, where appropriate (e.g., murder, adults being raped by other adults), and things that would be so controversial to depict that the showrunners would probably shy away from it (any kind of sex between adults and kids, even if they don't actually show any of it).

Again, I haven't read the books, so I don't know what happens with Sansa. But if the books include any kind of sexual relationship between her and an adult, whether coerced or not, I think there's a good chance that the TV show writers would drop that from the story, because it's probably too creepy even for HBO, if her character's only 15. (Though maybe I'm misjudging HBO?)

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The show's take on nudity and sex has always been embarrassing and they seem content on doing this. Even with the way they portray Oberyn. There's one brief passage in A Storm of Swords that says Oberyn was rumored to have relations with men. Well, that was enough for D and D to make the character bisexuality his defining trait on the show.

Oberyn and his woman were portrayed in the books as taking lovers into their mutual bed and of being people of great appetites. I think it was wonderfully done on the series. Bisexuality wasn't his defining trait. His traits are his appetites for pleasure, his adoration and respect of his partner (in contrast with other relationships on the show) and his deep desire to avenge is his sister.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Another excellent episode. The show is firing on all cylinders this season. It's always good to see Dany bring the heat in High Valyrian.

A number of the scenes involved someone being schooled in the harsh ways of the world (Sansa and Littlefinger, Arya and the Hound, Tommen and Tywin, etc), and the audience was on the receiving end of that, too, being shown that the characters they were willing to forgive for the murder of a child and the attempted murder of a child respectively are still, after all, fucked up people capable of heinous acts.

 

[Venardhi]

The writers may have clearly messed up when it came to this scene, but I don't think we should go overboard here. Regardless of what the book readers may think, I'd say the writers have gotten FAR more right with this series than they got wrong.

If they want to chart a slightly different course with Jaime than what was in the books, then I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on it. I think they've definitely earned it by this point.

I don't understand this sentiment at all. Following the books so closely is precisely how they have gotten so much right. When they deviate or add their own dramatic 'accoutrements' is when they tend to run into problems and even the audience unfamiliar with the source material seem to respond negatively to it.

 

[DevilEyes]

Another excellent episode. The show is firing on all cylinders this season. It's always good to see Dany bring the heat in High Valyrian.

A number of the scenes involved someone being schooled in the harsh ways of the world (Sansa and Littlefinger, Arya and the Hound, Tommen and Tywin, etc), and the audience was on the receiving end of that, too, being shown that the characters they were willing to forgive for the murder of a child and the attempted murder of a child respectively are still, after all, fucked up people capable of heinous acts.

So, basically, it's good writing to write random out of character bad acts for characters just so the audience wouldn't like them too much?

Seems like the definition of bad writing - writing something that doesn't make sense for the characterization, just in order to emotionally manipulate the audience.

What's next - do we get to see Theon drowning puppies just so we wouldn't forget that he had two children murdered in season 2? Tywin is one of the worst people in the series, but maybe he should disembowel Tommen's cats so we can be sure he's bad, since everything else is not enough? Why not show Cersei sexually abuse Tommen, just so we don't forget that she's evil?

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

So, basically, it's good writing to write random out of character bad acts for characters just so the audience wouldn't like them too much?

The show has changed some of the characterizations. Just because something contradicts elements of the books doesn't mean it's out of character on the show. The extent to which Jaime embarked on a genuine redemption arc is debatable, and his actions with Brienne doesn't mean there should be a forgive and forget attitude to his attempted murder of Bran.

 

[Professor Zoom]

So, basically, it's good writing to write random out of character bad acts for characters just so the audience wouldn't like them too much?

The show has changed some of the characterizations. Just because something contradicts elements of the books doesn't mean it's out of character on the show. The extent to which Jaime embarked on a genuine redemption arc is debatable, and his actions with Brienne doesn't mean there should be a forgive and forget attitude to his attempted murder of Bran.

Of course not, but so much has happened to Jaime that he feels and acts like a different person. I don't know if the current Jaime would do the same action that he did when we were first introduced to him.

That's why the rape feels so out of place for me. That's not the Jaime that I had been seeing... and then, in the next episode, 4.4, he's back to the Jaime prior to Breaker of Chains.

The rape didn't feel genuine. Now, him trying to fuck her there... yeah, maybe I could see that... but once she pushed him away... I don't see the current Jaime going all rapey.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

^^^
Some people want to forgive and forget for what happened to Bran and move onto a straightforward hero worship of Jaime. It's quite common in ASOIAF fandom.

The way I see Jaime is that his relationship with Cirsei is so screwed up that it can drive him to heinous acts. I think there's part of him that would have liked to be a noble knight all along, but he's influenced by intensity of feeling - for the better and for the worse - for particular individuals, and that isn't something that can necessarily be shaken off with no reversions.