Galaxy class armament

[Deks]

Well, the tiniest. Save for the Miranda, which might be considered "puny" rather than "tiny".

Of the offered SF ship classes in the 24th century, the Intrpid seems to be of 'medium size'.

That claim would require the sort of proof we cannot have because the two ship types never meet the same sort of opponents. With perhaps three exceptions: we never see an Intrepid do quite the same sort of damage to a Borg cube as the E-D did, or drill quite the same sort of holes in bedrock, or perform the famed alone-against-fifteen-Galors trick (as you say, less than a dozen Kazon ships of similar or worse primitiveness are usually her match).

Off-screen, it was mentioned by Voyager writers the ship has same weapons as the Galaxy class.
We don't know if smaller encompassing phaser strips result in smaller power output. That was never confirmed. I find it more than likely the Intrepid class was to be a downsized Galaxy class.
Less luxuries by comparison but still large enough to be it's equal in combat.
We've seen small ships that were a match for much larger ones. the Defiant comes to mind, and while it WAS 'overpowered' for it's size, there's a good chance that all new classes post Wolf 359 are in fact 'overpowered for their size'.
Point was that the 4 Kazon carriers would likely present the same threat to the Galaxy class just as they did to the Intrepid.

And need I remind you the Galaxy class woefully failed in combat against a 20 year old BoP?
Realistically, The Enterprise-D should have blown it out with 1 or two Sierra firing patterns.
Plus, as the years went by, the Galaxy's firepower was also equally diminished and torpedo firing capabilities slowed down to what we saw in Voyager (which was equipped with type 6 photon torpedoes - best available during it's launch)

The Intrepid has about a dozen phaser strips like the Galaxy, yes. But of different, smaller size. And at least four torpedo tubes against the two of the Galaxy - but again markedly smaller, and firing fewer torps with less destructive witnessed effects. There's no onscreen reason to believe the weapons alone or in concert would be equal to those of the Galaxy.

there is no reason to think otherwise. As I already said, smaller phaser strips don't necessarily equate to smaller power output.
And as for torpedoes (look at my upper reply).

What else could it mean, though? That all the Intrepid skippers were cowards?

Hardly. DS9 decided to make it's own choices in terms of used ship classes and whatnot because they wanted as least as possible of other shows to 'bleed' through into theirs.

Or simply superior speed to escape from battle - an ability the ship type is explicitly credited with. Couriers in the sailing ship era might have been warships, because a courier had to be fast, and a sailing ship could only be fast if it was large, in which case it could just as well be a warship to boot. But courier tasks in the steam and oil era were given to weakly armed and unarmored sprinters rather than to primary combatants, and the aircraft and vehicular worlds made an even clearer distinction between combatants and couriers.

Comparing contemporary or even older ships/tech to Trek cannot be done.
Picard himself laughed at the attempt in 'the Neutral zone'.

Which might be because there aren't many of those ships around. If the same reason keeps the Intrepids out of the Dominion War, what does that tell us? Sovereigns are big and probably slow to build, but Intrepids are barely the size of a Sovereign nacelle. Why aren't they being churned out at a faster pace, so that they could appear at least as often as the Defiant class of similar size and apparent great complexity?

Maybe they have and the Intrepids were used during the Dominion War, just not in battles we've seen.
We also don't know how many of them were constructed.
How many Defiant class ships have we seen in Ds9 again?
Less than 6 most likely.
And only because the Defiant became the 'hero ship' on that show.
The Intrepids could have been present in other fleets for example that hadn't been seen on-screen. Besides, out of 600 SF ships in 'Sacrifice of Angels' we have probably SEEN less than 50 (that doesn't mean the other 550 were sitting on a lunch break).

Sure. But that still leaves us wanting for an in-universe explanation.

Of course, but at the same time, I find it sensible to apply the following reasoning: just because something was not used in great quantities, doesn't diminish it's worth.

Besides, the Dominion War was predominantly fought with ships that were relatively old and upgraded over time.

 

[MacLeod]

^By same weapons, I take that to mean type X phasers and Photon torpedeos. Type X phasers likely have a maximum output.

 

[Timo]

We have no idea what type of phasers the Intrepid would have. But I find it hard to believe that size doesn't matter. The hand phasers do have less kick than the shuttlecraft ones, which have less kick than the starship ones!

It just stretches plausibility that all ships in the Star Trek universe would have identical abilities just because, and until otherwise proven. Why would Starfleet bother building different ship designs, then? Just fill the universe with the generic starship type and be done with it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Why not?
SF loves building different classes of ships for no apparent reason.
Why the Akira with all it's torpedo tubes when the Galaxy's 2 tubes are more than enough?

I'm inclined to think that the gap between the launches of Enterprise-D and Voyager was enough for SF to use the technologies that the Galaxy was testing on a smaller scale.

If the Defiant is able to match larger ships in combat when it comes to fire-power and defenses, then it's only logical it has 0 luxuries on-board and that it's interior is a submarine equivalent.

Voyager is 365m - ish long.... has much fewer luxuries than the Galaxy and a standard crew of say 150, whereas the Galaxy class has over 1000.

Voyager's internal volume may be smaller than the Galaxy class, but given it's far fewer luxuries compared to the Galaxy class, I would imagine that it's one of the reasons why it can hold such a small crew (they had issues when 200 Klingons beamed onto the ship temporarily), so other systems such as shields and weapons could be comparable to the larger classes.
Smaller design, same fire-power and defenses.
Good to backup your fleet with in tight spots because they could be constructed faster than larger designs such as the Galaxy or Sovereign.

The creators of Voyager not only stated that the Intrepid class phasers are Type X, but also that the Nova class same phaser types, however, Janeway said that Voyager had tactical superiority... probably because the Nova is a much more of a science class vessel than the Intrepid and less oriented for combat (not to mention that it might have had a standard torpedo compliment of 50 if the Intrepid could hold say 150).
Besides, the small Nova class ship was able to give Voyager a run for it's money in combat.

I would surmise that ships that go to a certain size (medium) can be comparable to largest classes and the only advantage of those would be construction times most likely.
Smaller ships than medium most likely end up with certain limitations and do not fall into the same category.
Perhaps the Nova class had inherently weaker shields by design, but most likely not to the point where the Intrepid would be 3x superior (unlikely).

Besides... what constitutes 'tactical superiority'?
Amount of torpedoes?
Shield strength, maxed out phaser output?
What if medium class ships have shields and phasers on equal levels as largest ships but have lower quantities of torpedoes?
Or I would surmise that tactical superiority might mean better maneuverability, or something else not directly connected to the weapons or shields.

Who knows how SF categorizes these things. But it's not impossible to have multiple ship classes which are smaller which behave the same as their larger cousins.

Larger ships can store higher torpedo counts, and more raw materials or spare parts than smaller ships for example.
Or could run longer than smaller ships but still retain equal weapons and shields.

There are numerous factors to take into account.
And I think people seem to be forgetting these things.

 

[Timo]

The creators of Voyager not only stated that the Intrepid class phasers are Type X, but also that the Nova class same phaser types, however, Janeway said that Voyager had tactical superiority...

Which already is enough to show that the creators have no creative control over the issue, and that the onscreen universe follows the obvious logic of small being weak.

I really don't see what possible reason there could be to speculate otherwise. We haven't seen small ships defeat large ones unless an explicit explanation has been given to the fact. And it rarely is even the classic "small is agile", except when enemy targeting systems are declared to be inferior (the DS9 Mirror Universe). It's simply "small circumvents shields" or "small carries exceptionally heavy weapons".

There are numerous factors to take into account. And I think people seem to be forgetting these things.

What possible point is there to "considering" anything when all starships are equal anyway?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Not all starships are equal.
Equal in certain aspects, better/worse in others.
For example, Voyager could have same weapons and shields and power output as a Galaxy class, and yet it cannot hold 260 torpedoes like the Galaxy (150 would be a more likely number, but unlikely 36 because that's WAY too small for a ship such as the Intrepid).
Furthermore, Voyager has 2 cargo bays.
The Galaxy class has how many? Certainly more than 2.
That includes the holodecks (bigger number for the Galaxy and only 2 on the Intrepid).

What the Galaxy has to power in regards to extra luxuries and decks, the Intrepid can freely pump into it's defenses/offenses.

Also need I remind you the Galaxy repeatedly failed with bringing down smaller/inferior ships such as the Klingon BoP?
And nevermind the premise that Voyager never created crater like holes into the Borg cubes.
Which SF ship after 'Q, who?' did anyway?
The fleet from FC not withstanding.
That includes the Enterprise-D btw. Voyager would have likely done the same had the ship encountered the Borg for the very first time.
Don't give an unfair comparison when you very well know that the only edge Picard had was that the Galaxy class was an unknown to the Borg (at least until they adapted - then the Galaxy never made a dent in it's hull).

 

[Vanyel]

Deks is right, not all ships are created equal.

It is possible and probable that the Intrepid class did receive warp core, shield and weapons upgrades before and during the Dominion War. Shield upgrades seemed to be priority since Dominion weapons could penetrate Federation shields, so while the ship is being upgraded add in stronger phasers, the type and number of torpedoes carried and the power source needed to handle the upgrades.

Starfleet Engineers were considered superb, able to turn rocks into replicators, and upgrades seemed to be done rather quickly across the fleet. So upgrading an Intrepid class is not an impossible task. She might not be able to keep firing phasers at full power as long as a Galaxy, but she could be given equal punch for short durations.

Then there is their speed. The class, as I recall, was a scout. Go in scan and leave as quickly as possible. Their speed, and if they did receive the upgrades I previously mentioned, would make them great for hit and run tactics and harassing a fleet or station before the main battle force arrived. Hit and run tactics could also be used as diversions moving Cardassian and Dominion ships away from one target allowing the fleet to attack a now less defended target. That could be the in-universe explanation why we never saw them in the big battles.

Then again when ~300 go up against ~600 the Intrepids may have been working in groups taking the heat off the capital ships and pulling Dominion and Cardassian ships away from the main battle site. That could have been their function in the Battle for Cardassia as well.

I just can't see a ship capable of putting up a good fight being sidelined.

However, all the open space in a Galaxy need not be powered, it could also be used to hold ready made torpedo casings and the antimatter needed for them. When not in battle the holodecks would be used for battle training and planing new maneuvers and tactics. While in battle, they would be completely shut off and power redistributed. The crew compliment during battle would not be the 1000 mentioned in TNG, but 1000 minus families. I think the tech manual said it only needed a crew of about 500 to 600 to run the ship. For arguments sake lets say it needs only ~600 to run it, it could add another 100 or more for added rotation or add internal security to fight boarding parties or to board a crippled enemy vessel.

 

[cwl]

The Galaxy was the top of the line flagship of starfleet when constructed. Now its firepower-to-size ratio may not be that high (IHMO) and the Intrepid may indeed have a better firepower-to-size ratio but the Galaxy class is MUCH larger and so is still a lot more powerful.

 

[Deks]

One other thing.
If you guys recall... the refitted Nova class 'Rhode Island' (Kim's ship) in the alternate timeline during 'Endgame' episode was able to relatively easily penetrate shields on 2 Negh'Var ships (but not stop them from entering the rift).

Either the Klingons got sloppy with upgrades to their capital ships (which is possible), or the 'dingy' little Nova is much more formidable than what people would give it credit for.

I would be inclined to generally agree that larger ships might be able to deliver maximum barrage longer than smaller ships that are able to deliver same destructive power but at a bit shorter time frames.

Then again, the Warp core on Voyager was decisively different compared to the Galaxy and Sovereign classes.
It's possible that it's power output is comparable to the new Warp core the Enterprise-D got in later seasons.
I wouldn't be surprised if SF engineers managed to put all that power into a smaller design after all.

Why not use such cores on Galaxy class or even Sovereign class then?
Different designs need different warp cores due to height differences and connector types. Their size on the other hand is not necessarily an indication that 'bigger = better'.

As I said, the Galaxy was a testbed for new technologies.
7 years later it's entirely possible that SF was able to allow medium class ships of new design such as the Intrepid to be comparable to Galaxy classes in power output, shields and phasers.
After all... the battle of Wolf 359 likely prompted them to think along those lines in the first place because mere exposure to the Borg and some of their implant technology would have given SF engineers ideas.

We can argue that the Prometheus class could be equal in fire-power and shield strength to a Sovereign class given that it was mentioned to have practically the same systems.
Plus, who knows, it's possible that during MVAM, there is a wireless transfer of power between sections that allow phasers to fire at maximum rates just as when the ship would be connected (it might imply a certain range as well if you want the sections to operate at same levels when connected)... but even if there isn't, a small warp core of advanced design would likely be more than enough to power sovereign grade shields and weapons on a much smaller vessel such as one of the Prometheus sections.

There are tons of options and aspects from various shows to take into account, but there's definitely room for a possible explanation that medium sized ships at least could deliver same power output and combat capabilities (minus the torpedo compliment) during combat - might even be for shorter periods.

 

[Vanyel]

Harry's Rhode Island was from some 26 years in the future (Voyager was in her 7th year in the DQ. It took Admiral Janey 23 years to get back to Earth and they were celebrating the 10th anniversary of her return. [(23-7)+10]=26). So we're looking at a Nova with weapons 26 years more advanced than Captain Janeway's Voyager.

We may not be looking at Nova at all, it may be a similar looking ship. In any event, it's 26 years more advanced the Voyager of Endgame. It's weapons, whether or not it's a Nova, would have gone through several upgrades. Unless it brand new in which would make no difference, since a new ship would be outfitted with the best weapons that it can carry.

I don't remember them mentioning the relationship between The Klingon Empire and the Federation. Janeway could have been dealing with a lower House who could only get a hold of the old (The class would have been about 30 years old at the time.) Negh'Var, so a state of the art Rhode Island should have been able to fight them as well as she did. A modern Klingon ship of that era might have ripped Harry's Rhode Island apart.

 

[Timo]

OTOH, a mere shuttlecraft was giving two of the heaviest known Klingon battlewagons a whipping, thanks to game-changing supertechnologies. That sort of crushes all hope of using these events as some sort of starship relative capability yardstick.

I still don't see the merit in insisting that every starship is identical - even if this is arrived at by using weird balances of onboard technology to compensate for obvious imbalances elsewhere. Sure, it might be possible to pack the firepower of a Galaxy into a smaller spaceframe. But in that case, it would also be possible to pack twenty times that firepower into the Galaxy spaceframe. Why give preferential treatment to the Intrepid?

The class, as I recall, was a scout.

Nothing was ever established about what the Voyager was built to do. Which may be why everybody is so eager to assign the sum total of the known capabilities of every other starship type to her. But apparently Starfleet built her for a reason, when it could just as well have built an Akira or a Nova. Why not speculate on a role that would fit the ship, rather than on roles we never saw her perform?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Arpy]

They have to constantly be upgrading the ships' technologies and we know they do - look at the Excelsior Class Lakota that nearly destroyed the would-be Borg-killer Defiant. After all, who's going to put new weapons on a tiny Rhode Island and leave a massive Galaxy (of 1000+ people) or Sovereign relatively defenseless? Also, we saw them upgrade the Galaxy's weapons during TNG and then again during DS9.