Galactic BORG?

[RobertScorpio]

The Borg, according to Q and the Queen and Guinan, have been around for thousands of years. And they not only have Warp Drive, they have Transwarp Conduits (ooooohhh...awwwwww).

So, let me see. We have Warp Drive since Archer's time, and have not only explored a big chunk of Alpha Quadrant, but some of the Beta, some of the Gamma, and even some of the Delta.

The Borg have it as their prime directive, it seems, to absorb cultures that are of value to them. And yet, in those thousands and thousands of years of going into space to absorb it, they only managed to get to us around Picard's time? And not just us, but the Romulans and Klingons and whom ever else we have met since Archer's time..

Oh, I know, some of you will say its because they have been concentrating their efforts in the Delta Quadrant, but that is flimsy at best.

So, I put it to you, my highly educated Trekonian brothers and sisters...

What has taken the Borg so long to find the Alpha Quadrant? Hmmm. Maybe they are allergic to the Tribbles too???

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Kemaiku]

The Borg have existed as they have for under 1000 years and only began major assimilation around 900 years prior to Voyager, they controlled about a dozen worlds.

The Borg monitor each species, they assess each area of space, they assimilate what they need then spend significant amounts of time developing that area of space or each planet until they stations, processing facilities, new vessels to secure that region and of course transwarp routes in place.

So they don't spread very far over time, but everywhere they have spread too is completely assimilated and saturated with their influence. At this point they span more of the Delta quadrant than the Federation spans the Alpha. But sector for sector there is far more Borg presence in their space which took long periods of time to produce.

Think of it as having to slow expansion, to create greater industrial infrastructure.

 

[anais]

Maybe a lot of the AQ species were considered unsuitable for assimilation until recently.

 

[JayTheTrekkie]

So since we know that the Borg has been around for 1000 years...why did Q, the Queen and Quinan say they have been around for thousands of years back in TNG before we got Voyager? Was it just a guess or speculation they made?

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

Yeah Voyager canon conflicts with the information in TNG canon, who is right ? My guess is if the Borg are around longer than 1000 yrs they must have been very weak at one stage having little technology to consume. Some ancient race like the Preservers, John Anderson's survivor species, or maybe the Progenitors might have kept them in check.

I'm not really sure how you answer this galactic question but here's a bit on canon from wikipedia. The ST offical site states

definition is not set in stone, but that the notion of what constitutes canon is fluid, open to interpretation and debate

 

[Hermiod]

The Vaadwaur had encountered them in what would have been our 14th century but only considered them to be a minor nuisance at the time.

However, with their ability to travel throughout the galaxy very quickly, they most likely have very specific targets. Up until their first real encounters with the Federation and the Romulans, our little fragment of the Alpha Quadrant might now have been all that interesting to them.

 

[Triskelion]

Guinan may have been speaking metaphorically. Or perhaps the Borg were not always expansionist. In fact the Borg of Guinan on Enterprise were not even interested in assimiliation.

It also merits speculation as to the differences between "progress" as defined by the respective cultures in question.

 

[Deks]

Guinan claimed that the Collective's consciousness has been developing for thousands of centuries (or more ... I forgot her exact words).
Their assimilation of other cultures however (which involves actually going into space and all) may not have begun until about 1000 years prior to Voyager's events ... or possibly/probably a bit more.

In Voyager it was claimed by the Vaudwar that the Borg assimilated only a handful of systems some 900 years ago.
Ok ... if we go about that claim, then their expansion was actually very slow and their primary stronghold is in the DQ where the main Unicomplex is located, and they also hold pockets of other areas of the galaxy in virtually all 4 quadrants.

The Borg could have attained Warp travel through a number of ways really.
But their expansion as such could have been very slow until they found species with superior technology.
And even then, it could still be that their primary goal would be to not to assimilate the entire galaxy because they could keep numerous races around purely for advancing technology.
It's possible they decide to assimilate an entire culture when they encounter a species of which they think it might reach technological advancement that would go beyond the Collective's ability to adapt to.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Guinan claimed that the Collective's consciousness has been developing for thousands of centuries (or more ... I forgot her exact words).
Their assimilation of other cultures however (which involves actually going into space and all) may not have begun until about 1000 years or possibly a bit more.

In Voyager it was claimed by the Vaudwar that the Borg assimilated only a handful of systems some 900 years ago.
Ok ... if we go about that claim, then their expansion was actually very slow and their primary stronghold is in the DQ where the main Unicomplex is located, and they also hold pockets of other areas of the galaxy in virtually all 4 quadrants.

The Borg could have attained Warp travel through a number of ways really.
But their expansion as such could have been very slow until they found species with superior technology.
And even then, it could still be that their primary goal would be to not to assimilate the entire galaxy because they could keep numerous races around purely for advancing technology.
It's possible they decide to assimilate an entire culture when they encounter a species of which they think it might reach technological advancement that would go beyond the Collective's ability to adapt to.

Thanks to you, and others, for clearing this up. Great job all!!

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Timo]

The Borg in the 24th century are a mysterious and secretive species; they are basically compared to Bigfoot in VOY "Dark Frontier". They may well have been secretive for their entire history of galactic assimilation, so people who don't directly fall victim to them would only have a vague idea of their existence, or then none at all. It may well be that the Borg have controlled all the quadrants of the galaxy for those hundreds of millennia that Guinan and Q in TNG "Q Who?" talk about, and it's just that nobody has noticed.

Contrary to what Guinan posits, the Borg love to do things piecemeal. They send single ships against their adversaries, sometimes apparently with the goal of failing - and stimulating the growth and technological advancement of their victims, as in VOY "Child's Play". It would be perfectly possible for them to roam around the Alpha Quadrant for millennia upon millennia, and only occasionally lash out against promising victims. Perhaps the last time they "sampled" the space near Earth was shortly before any of the local species had developed starflight?

As for the Borg having been weak 900 years prior to VOY "Dragon's Teeth", this is what the episode has to say:

Gedrin the Vaadwaur: "Don't you recognise my people? The Vaadwaur?"
7 of 9: "The Collective's memory from nine hundred years ago is fragmentary."
Gedrin: "I've had many encounters with your kind."

And later on:

Gedrin: "That star cluster in grid fourteen twenty one? Nearly half the planets are inhabitable. "
7 of 9: "Unfortunately they are already occupied, by the Borg. "
Gedrin: "The Borg? In my century they'd only assimilated a handful of systems. It looks like they've spread through the quadrant like a plague ...No offense."

It seems that Gedrin's folks had "manageable" dealings with the Borg 900 years prior to the episode - but then again, the dealings the Federation has had with them have been manageable as well, so far. Perhaps the Borg simply went soft on the Vaadwaur at that time? Since those folks were ascending local tyrants back then, thus very similar to the Federation, it would make sense for the Borg to "tease" them like they are teasing the Feds. Once the Vaadwaur were milked of all their technological potential, they would be assimilated - only this time, the victims died out (or went into hibernation) before the Borg could proceed with such assimilation.

Gedrin's claim that the Borg had only assimilated a handful of systems could and should refer only to the immediate vicinity of the Vaadwaur empire. After all, those folks didn't exactly span the whole galaxy, or even the Delta neighborhood, in their heyday. So this doesn't mean the Borg wouldn't have controlled a billion worlds in the Alpha, Beta and Gamma Quadrants at the time, while only clandestinely monitoring another billion, and keeping a third billion "fallow" on purpose.

And Seven's statement that records from 900 years ago are fragmentary should probably be read as simple evasive politeness...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

I agree that 7's claim of the Collective's memory being fragmentary from 900 years ago is ... dubious at best.
Then again, 7 remained a rather straightforward individual throughout most of the show and being polite, especially when it concerned description of the Borg was not exactly part of her 'charming' personality.
I think this little 'goof' could conveniently be forgotten as it's possible the writers didn't want to use 7 too much and end the episode before it began.


One other thing ... I don't see why the Collective wouldn't be weak and hold just a handful of systems 900 years ago (counting from Voyagers time frame).
Although Gedrin never really stated they were weak ... just that they held a handful of systems.
Either way it can work so the Borg only expand when they decide to assimilate an entire culture that poses a potential threat or they deem them as fresh out of ideas for new technologies.

It works either way and with what Guinan stated (who also had only her own point of reference)
Her species could have been quite powerful, so the Borg always chose to do things in force and not ship by ship as they did with the Feds (who were perceived as 'raw material' and not really of consequence).

 

[RobertScorpio]

I agree that 7's claim of the Collective's memory being fragmentary from 900 years ago is ... dubious at best.
Then again, 7 remained a rather straightforward individual throughout most of the show and being polite, especially when it concerned description of the Borg was not exactly part of her 'charming' personality.
I think this little 'goof' could conveniently be forgotten as it's possible the writers didn't want to use 7 too much and end the episode before it began.


One other thing ... I don't see why the Collective wouldn't be weak and hold just a handful of systems 900 years ago (counting from Voyagers time frame).
Although Gedrin never really stated they were weak ... just that they held a handful of systems.
Either way it can work so the Borg only expand when they decide to assimilate an entire culture that poses a potential threat or they deem them as fresh out of ideas for new technologies.

It works either way and with what Guinan stated (who also had only her own point of reference)
Her species could have been quite powerful, so the Borg always chose to do things in force and not ship by ship as they did with the Feds (who were perceived as 'raw material' and not really of consequence).

I don't know...Q and Guinan both seem to imply that the BORG have been around for awhile, and they can not be negotiated with because they have no leader...By creating the queen they totally gutted this best part of them...I mean, whats wrong with a bunch of Zombies coming after you, and keep coming..and keep coming...thats why I think they went over so well...the Queen just made them humdrum...

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Vanyel]

As for the Borg having been weak 900 years prior to VOY "Dragon's Teeth", this is what the episode has to say:

Gedrin the Vaadwaur: "Don't you recognise my people? The Vaadwaur?"
7 of 9: "The Collective's memory from nine hundred years ago is fragmentary."
Gedrin: "I've had many encounters with your kind."

And later on:

Gedrin: "That star cluster in grid fourteen twenty one? Nearly half the planets are inhabitable. "
7 of 9: "Unfortunately they are already occupied, by the Borg. "
Gedrin: "The Borg? In my century they'd only assimilated a handful of systems. It looks like they've spread through the quadrant like a plague ...No offense."

Timo Saloniemi

I always took 7's remark to mean that something happened to the Borg.

The Borg may have been out assimilating species, and adding to their Collective for over a 1000 years. Then the Borg could have encountered a race who, like Species 8472, vastly over powered them; or had developed a virus or something that came close to destroying the Borg. This unknown species could have decimated the Borg and left them for dead, thus leaving their memories of that period as "fragmentary", and leaving them with only a "handful of systems".

That's also why I think the Borg decided to invade Earth's past by going through the Federation, then using time travel. That unknown species, or the remnants of them, may have still existed until fairly recently.

 

[Vanyel]

I don't know...Q and Guinan both seem to imply that the BORG have been around for awhile, and they can not be negotiated with because they have no leader...By creating the queen they totally gutted this best part of them...I mean, whats wrong with a bunch of Zombies coming after you, and keep coming..and keep coming...thats why I think they went over so well...the Queen just made them humdrum...

Rob
Scorpio

It could also mean that as a general rule, they don't negotiate.

I've liked the idea of a Queen. To me she serves as like a central processor. Like she said, she gives order to chaos. All those voices talking all at once could be detrimental unless there was one voice that kept the others in order.

 

[Timo]

Then again, Locutus also spoke with one voice. The Queen could be another such loudspeaker, a mere mouthpiece who doesn't really make any decisions even if she does voice them for the benefit of the audience.

But there's another explanation for her that I find entertaining: perhaps the Queen is what happened to the Borg 900 years before VOY?

Perhaps the Queen is an alien lifeform that infiltrated the Collective and made a virtual nest in there. Or perhaps this lifeform didn't come from the outside, but was born out of the thought processes of the Collective, yet evolved into a separate parasitic lifeform nevertheless. After a few decades or centuries of confusion, the Collective would adapt and carry on, burdened with the parasite but, true to their form, now making use of it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jealousblues]

The Borg, according to Q and the Queen and Guinan, have been around for thousands of years. And they not only have Warp Drive, they have Transwarp Conduits (ooooohhh...awwwwww).

So, let me see. We have Warp Drive since Archer's time, and have not only explored a big chunk of Alpha Quadrant, but some of the Beta, some of the Gamma, and even some of the Delta.

The Borg have it as their prime directive, it seems, to absorb cultures that are of value to them. And yet, in those thousands and thousands of years of going into space to absorb it, they only managed to get to us around Picard's time? And not just us, but the Romulans and Klingons and whom ever else we have met since Archer's time..

Oh, I know, some of you will say its because they have been concentrating their efforts in the Delta Quadrant, but that is flimsy at best.

So, I put it to you, my highly educated Trekonian brothers and sisters...

What has taken the Borg so long to find the Alpha Quadrant? Hmmm. Maybe they are allergic to the Tribbles too???

Rob
Scorpio

my crazy, uneducated wild *ssed guesses are these

1) they werent always into assimilating people/cultures and that reletively new

2) they were using all their rescources fighting a war with another power?

3) They are originally from another galaxy or something crazy like that and just entered ours through the delta quadrant.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Well we know about 900 yrs prior to Voyager they only controlled a handful of sectors and weren't considered a major threat, we can assume the Borg of that time did not have technology as advanced as they do now and more than likely found it more difficult to assimilate other cultures and it quite possibly took months or even years of fighting for the Borg (of that era) to conquer and assimilate other species, it is only as time has gone on and new technology has been assimilated that the Borg have become so unstoppable and ruthless.
I dont see any problem with the Borg over the span of 900 years being still within the Delta Quadrant, if anything the Borg being so machine like and mathematical in the way they think would assimilate worlds and conquer territory in a spherical fashion, in other words they'd concentrate on assimilateing neighbouring worlds and species first and only send 1 cube out to other qudrants on scouting missions.

Also we know in 'Enterprise' that the Borg drones left over from the 'First Contact' incident sent a message to the Delta Quadrant and it would take a long time to get there, it's reasonable to assume that this message eventually reached the Borg collective and they sent out a cube towards the Alpha Quadrant to investigate which is when Q showed up and flung the Enterprise-D towards this Borg Cube.
There's no reason to believe that prior to the message and the Ent-D encounter that the Borg were interested in other Quadrants.

Also are we even aware of how long the Borg have had Transwarp technology? it's quite possible that the Borg only recently aquired the technology by assimilating a Delta Quadrant species and until recently only had regular warp.

The Borg even in the late 2300's had difficulty assimilating some species, we know that Arcturus's people were able to defend against the Borg for quite some time and the fight against species 8472 helped them even further, so throughout Borg history I'm sure the Borg have had to fight several prolonged wars.

 

[Jadzia]

Maybe a lot of the AQ species were considered unsuitable for assimilation until recently.

A very good point. As Q said, "They are not interested in you, just your ship. They've identified it as something they can consume."

I can't imagine "stone knives and bearskins" would be very useful to them.

 

[Timo]

Well we know about 900 yrs prior to Voyager they only controlled a handful of sectors and weren't considered a major threat

...As far as the Vaadwaur knew. But how informed could they be, when their own reach was far from galactic?

Also we know in 'Enterprise' that the Borg drones left over from the 'First Contact' incident sent a message to the Delta Quadrant and it would take a long time to get there, it's reasonable to assume that this message eventually reached the Borg collective and they sent out a cube towards the Alpha Quadrant to investigate which is when Q showed up and flung the Enterprise-D towards this Borg Cube.
There's no reason to believe that prior to the message and the Ent-D encounter that the Borg were interested in other Quadrants.

The sequence of events can't be exactly this, because "The Neutral Zone" featured a Borg presence near Earth that preceded "Q Who?".

We might also argue that the Borg give their infamous Spieces Numbers in chronological order. In that case, the fact that humans are #5618 and Vulcans are #3259 while several Delta Quadrant species have higher numbers would suggest that the chronology of Borg species cataloguing is not consistent with a gradual expansion of their territory from Delta to elsewhere. Rahter, species would get their numbers when they become interesting for the Borg: Vulcans would be named quite a bit before humans, despite being close neighbors, while the Ferengi could get #180 in accordance with Quark's "Little Green Men" musings about how slowly their species has developed (i.e. how they had an early start).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RobertScorpio]

Well, if the Vulcans were exploring space before we were, in fact they were doing that when they came across Zeppy and Earth in FC, then wouldn't they have made it to the Delta Quadrant far before we did???

Rob
Scorpio