FX/editing wishlist/technical/related discussion for STNG-R

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

The CGI Ent-D in TATV is often brought up, I think that too looks like sh1t compared to the HD and SD ILM 1987 footage and inferior to DS9 CGI Galaxy class ships.

Its still got the CGI game look written all over it but I think this is down to they way EDEN FX rendered their starships.

The model too is off particularly where the neck meets the engineering section and the windows seem too 'set back' into the hull.

EDIT: I just looked at TATV screencaps and they arent as bad as I thought but they are still not as good as the original model. The model maker needs to smooth out the textures/bumps/windows, flatten them out a bit. The original and best 6ft model is a lot smoother than the models/cgi that came after it.

 

[BlobVanDam]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Shit? No way. I haven't seen it at high def for a side by side comparison with any high def shots of the studio model, so maybe it's not as good as the original model shots on film, but it still looked great. I also haven't seen any of the CG shots from DS9, but I can't imagine anything from that time period matching it. But feel free to post some shots so I can see for myself. But I'm not sure how any DS9 era models would hold up to high def. Tape was very forgiving.

I had noticed that the neck was slightly off though. The D seems to be a tricky shape around there, and the window cutouts are usually a dead giveaway. It's probably a lot better than the 4ft D though, which we'd be stuck with for a lot of later season shots. And I think it's an all or nothing situation. Mixing the model shots with some CG shots is going to look inconsistent.

 

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Right ok shit is too harsh a word but if you put the TATV 1080p CGI model vs 1080p 1987 ILM modelwork I know which one I would choose!

I hope they scan the original ILM work at HD and use it instead of CGI even if its of TATV 'quality'

We know TNG used the stock footage a lot particularly in the first 2 seasons. Surely it saves a lot of CG work.

 

[BlobVanDam]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

If they have the CG model built, a generic flyby is really simple to make. No more difficult than scanning and recomp'ing the film elements, maybe even easier. I'm not sure if it might be more work for them to track down the model shot passes and line them all up and comp them to look the same.

The ILM model does look good in high def from the one shot I've seen, but aside from generic flybys, I don't think the week to week shots of the Enterprise sitting randomly in space with another spaceship randomly in space with a crappy circle planet behind it will hold up in high def. Even though the model was great, some of the shots just looked bad.

So I'm thinking it's mostly the stock shots of the Enterprise that would actually look good, and with the issues of mixing and matching CG with the physical model, and the trouble of finding and recomp'ing those film elements, it's not going to be worth it. If they're going to go with CG, they'll do it with everything, just like in TOS-R. Let's hope they can actually make a decent looking Enterprise model.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

3 canon cgi models of ENT-d already available to license:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2693205&postcount=21

 

[mswood]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Right ok shit is too harsh a word but if you put the TATV 1080p CGI model vs 1080p 1987 ILM modelwork I know which one I would choose!

I hope they scan the original ILM work at HD and use it instead of CGI even if its of TATV 'quality'

We know TNG used the stock footage a lot particularly in the first 2 seasons. Surely it saves a lot of CG work.

See I prefer the CGI versus in TATV, over the the filmed ILM elements (But I do prefer the original model work done on Generations, but those shots were designed and shot with a movie's time schedule). Now I would (I really love them when at all possible) to see new model work done and filmed at the higher thresholds for film (let alone HD), but ILM didn't do that back in 87, they didn't do their best work (after all it was a very small project by ILM standards, designed for TV).

But since most of the model work of TNG isn't the 6 footer, nor is it the work ILM did (the bulk being the different and easier to work with 4 ft model built season 3) we could never get a uniform look for the ship even if we absolutely had all filmed passes for the model work. It just can't happen as the two models (and this doesn't even touch upon the two foot model) are very different. And since neither model is available for filming they couldn't even film all those elements over using just one model (instead of the two different ones).

 

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Right ok shit is too harsh a word but if you put the TATV 1080p CGI model vs 1080p 1987 ILM modelwork I know which one I would choose!

I hope they scan the original ILM work at HD and use it instead of CGI even if its of TATV 'quality'

We know TNG used the stock footage a lot particularly in the first 2 seasons. Surely it saves a lot of CG work.

See I prefer the CGI versus in TATV, over the the filmed ILM elements (But I do prefer the original model work done on Generations, but those shots were designed and shot with a movie's time schedule). Now I would (I really love them when at all possible) to see new model work done and filmed at the higher thresholds for film (let alone HD), but ILM didn't do that back in 87, they didn't do their best work (after all it was a very small project by ILM standards, designed for TV).

But since most of the model work of TNG isn't the 6 footer, nor is it the work ILM did (the bulk being the different and easier to work with 4 ft model built season 3) we could never get a uniform look for the ship even if we absolutely had all filmed passes for the model work. It just can't happen as the two models (and this doesn't even touch upon the two foot model) are very different. And since neither model is available for filming they couldn't even film all those elements over using just one model (instead of the two different ones).

But don't forget, two FX shots of the Enterprise in Generations where from Encounter at Farpoint.

The part just before Stellar Cartography and the underside view of the saucer separation.

 

[Dac]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Right ok shit is too harsh a word but if you put the TATV 1080p CGI model vs 1080p 1987 ILM modelwork I know which one I would choose!

I hope they scan the original ILM work at HD and use it instead of CGI even if its of TATV 'quality'

We know TNG used the stock footage a lot particularly in the first 2 seasons. Surely it saves a lot of CG work.

The TATV E-D was made in 1 week on a rushed schedule, and on that it looked awesome.

Given time, it can look super modern, or even look almost exactly like the original, only in higher quality...

That IS the TATV E-D....

 

[mswood]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Right ok shit is too harsh a word but if you put the TATV 1080p CGI model vs 1080p 1987 ILM modelwork I know which one I would choose!

I hope they scan the original ILM work at HD and use it instead of CGI even if its of TATV 'quality'

We know TNG used the stock footage a lot particularly in the first 2 seasons. Surely it saves a lot of CG work.

See I prefer the CGI versus in TATV, over the the filmed ILM elements (But I do prefer the original model work done on Generations, but those shots were designed and shot with a movie's time schedule). Now I would (I really love them when at all possible) to see new model work done and filmed at the higher thresholds for film (let alone HD), but ILM didn't do that back in 87, they didn't do their best work (after all it was a very small project by ILM standards, designed for TV).

But since most of the model work of TNG isn't the 6 footer, nor is it the work ILM did (the bulk being the different and easier to work with 4 ft model built season 3) we could never get a uniform look for the ship even if we absolutely had all filmed passes for the model work. It just can't happen as the two models (and this doesn't even touch upon the two foot model) are very different. And since neither model is available for filming they couldn't even film all those elements over using just one model (instead of the two different ones).

But don't forget, two FX shots of the Enterprise in Generations where from Encounter at Farpoint.

The part just before Stellar Cartography and the underside view of the saucer separation.

I know those are the model shots I didn't like as much in generations. They're fairly generic, with little artistry but serviceable for TV. ILM just didn't spend a ton of time with those shots for Encounter at Farpoint. It wasn't their A team, or their B team.

 

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

That is looking better than TATV and would look ok in TNG-R I guess, but it's still not accurate and still not looking as good. Its getting there though and with time and money it'll look pretty darn good.

Time and money being the key words though!

 

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Found a bunch of Koerners attempts at the TNG intro: http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d17/GCKoerner/art/?start=all

I wonder if he did a video?

These are the closest I have seen to TNG FX done in CG. Sign him up CBS! Like I said its not perfect but its pretty good for one mans attempt. I say get him and Tobias Richter to work together on it FYI Gabe Koerner is the guy that made the CGI Enterprise D in These are the Voyages incase people wonder WTF I am talking about and Tobias Richter is a Trek CGI god.

 

[Dac]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Again, like TOS-R though, this is not just a matter of quality but also one of style. You can attempt to remake it shot for shot like Gabe's Intro attempt, or you can attempt to make it something else. I for one wouldn't mind changing Earth Station McKinley in "Family" into something more like this.

(Yes, this is Gabe's too. Dude's a legend).

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Why? McKinley was specifically designed for the show and the ship class, man!

 

[ATimson]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Even if the live action is done at 2k, the effects would only be rendered at 1080p. I can't beleive that they are thinking that far ahead.

2K is 1080p, or close enough - 2K/4K refer to the horizontal size, or 2048x1080 resolution (versus 1920x1080 for the broadcast/Blu-ray size).

 

[evilnate]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Even if the live action is done at 2k, the effects would only be rendered at 1080p. I can't beleive that they are thinking that far ahead.

2K is 1080p, or close enough - 2K/4K refer to the horizontal size, or 2048x1080 resolution (versus 1920x1080 for the broadcast/Blu-ray size).

2k is 2048x1556, which is about 150% the resolution of 1080p.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

As I've said before

TNG-R would probably be 2K telecine as 4K full post pipeline just would be too costly

This is television and home video (in HD as Blu-ray and HD downloads). It is not digital cinema of a blockbuster movie.

Some older big movies have been telecined at 4K or 6K and then downrezzed to 2K for the restoration work for the HD master. I use 2K as an example.
The TOS-R work was done at 1080p (HD). That is what the visual FX created for any TNG-R would be rendered at. Any higher would:
1. cost more and take more time to render
2. have to be downrezzed to HD
3. Be wasting resources on creating CGI models and digital matte paintings that do not need to be seen above 1080p HD resolution.

I can see the telecine work being done on a state-of-the-art 4k datacine if whatever post house CBS uses purchases or has one already otherwise a 2k telecine is adequate for a TNG-R.

Let's get back on track here guys. What new FX or editing would you like to see? I'd like the visual FX in space of any ships to have flyovers like VOY and ENT series as well as the TOS-R flyovers vs. just some minimal movement in TNG due to the amount of time it would take to do the passes on 35mm of the 4-ft. model.

 

[ATimson]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

2k is 2048x1556, which is about 150% the resolution of 1080p.

You're right, I was thinking 16x9, not 4x3.

 

[Mark 2000]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Again, like TOS-R though, this is not just a matter of quality but also one of style. You can attempt to remake it shot for shot like Gabe's Intro attempt, or you can attempt to make it something else. I for one wouldn't mind changing Earth Station McKinley in "Family" into something more like this.


(Yes, this is Gabe's too. Dude's a legend).

I disagree. The E was in something like that in Starship Mine. It's not as if the producers didn't know what they could make. That kind of drydock have been in ST lore forever. They consciously made McKinley look the way it did and it had nothing to do with budget or ability.

One thing that does interest me is that the model elements are all on film, but what about the computer generated stuff? McKinley, the space baby, the comet in Masks. I'm assuming that would have to be remodeled and rerendered.

 

[evilnate]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Again, like TOS-R though, this is not just a matter of quality but also one of style. You can attempt to remake it shot for shot like Gabe's Intro attempt, or you can attempt to make it something else. I for one wouldn't mind changing Earth Station McKinley in "Family" into something more like this.


(Yes, this is Gabe's too. Dude's a legend).

I disagree. The E was in something like that in Starship Mine. It's not as if the producers didn't know what they could make. That kind of drydock have been in ST lore forever. They consciously made McKinley look the way it did and it had nothing to do with budget or ability.

One thing that does interest me is that the model elements are all on film, but what about the computer generated stuff? McKinley, the space baby, the comet in Masks. I'm assuming that would have to be remodeled and rerendered.

McKinley Station was a model, but yes, all the CGI would need to be redone.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

old CGI models

the model elements are all on film, but what about the computer generated stuff? McKinley, the space baby, the comet in Masks. I'm assuming that would have to be remodeled and rerendered.

The TNG CGI models are probably gone.

The CGI models for VOY and ENT are around backed up somewhere at Eden FX.
Anything from TNG is probably gone.
The CGI models these days use different software anyway. The resolution for HD would require additional detail work on a old model anyway.
Anything from ENT would be usuable and already in enough detail for HD.
If CBS Digital were doing the job though they probably wouldn't pay to license CGI models from Eden FX.