It's been a while since I saw End Game. From what I recall, Future Janeway was killed when the Unicomplex was destroyed. Is there any hint that she may have escaped to her shuttle?
Future Janeway's fate.
- Thread starter ConRefit79
- Start date
I haven't watched VOY in a while, but I think these links might help
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Janeway
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Kathryn_Janeway
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Kathryn_Janeway
Normally I would say "not a chance," but when I watched the Delta Flyer blown to smithereens in one episode and then magically reappear intact in the next (which ironically is what happened to the U.S.S. Voyager in every episode), I'd have to change my response to "there's always a chance, no matter how intelligence-insulting it may be."
Plus, Davros always seemed to be able to escape death every time we thought he was a goner, so why not Janeway?
Plus, Davros always seemed to be able to escape death every time we thought he was a goner, so why not Janeway?
Wasn't she dying at the time, being Borgified at the time and dying of the virus killing the Borgifying bits of her at the time? It's been a while so I might be wrong.
What I want to know is: Is Old Janeway's alternate future still out there, somewhere? According to the STXI writers' "many worlds" stuff, Janeway's universe is still there, "her" Chakotay and Seven are still dead and all she did is create a new universe with an alternate chain of events when she went back.
Kinda makes the whole thing a bit selfish and pointless, doesn't it?
*Nods in agreement*
^ Then again, a lot of people also believe ST XI is not just an alternate timeline, but an alternate UNIVERSE as well (a timeline is not the same thing as a universe). So ST XI can still preserve the original timeline, because Spock and Nero emerged into another universe, and yet adhere to the 'replacement' theory of time travel.
In which case, Old Admiral's future no longer exists.
In which case, Old Admiral's future no longer exists.
I was just thinking the same thing. So time travel is useless, cause you simply end up in a different time line.
I don't think there's any difference between "alternate universe" and "alternate timeline" at all. I always thought it was different wording for pretty much the same thing
Anyway, I prefer to think of every time-travel story generating dozens of forgotten alternate universes. It's so reckless and chaotic it makes me smile whenever I think about it
hey fellow trekkers
i was reading the Star Trek books Destiny, and Janeway was taken by the Borg, i dont know what happerns to her after it.
i was reading the Star Trek books Destiny, and Janeway was taken by the Borg, i dont know what happerns to her after it.
To find out what happened to Janeway, you need to read the prior book, Before Dishonor. Some like it (I thought it was very silly, but fun), others hate it with a passion.
No, that is only a personal opinion and based on some shaky idea of just what the older Kathryn Janeway’s time line was like. We actually see very little about that time line. Of all her crew we only know that Tom, Belanna, Mrial, Harry Kim, Tuvok, The Doctor, and Naomi Wildman’s daughter survived. Those are the only characters we see, and Tuvok was only one step above being dead.
We know that Borg courses are taught at the Academy, and we know that the Klingons have a time machine available to steal. There is nothing and no one else. There is no mention of any of the DS9 or the NG characters.
You only call her sacrifice selfish and pointless because those she saved only have three faces, Tuvok, Chakotay, and Seven of Nine. You all forget there were over twenty deaths on Voyager and because the Borg existed, uncounted billions across the galaxy and that isn’t selfish and pointless at all.
Did you ever once ask who those people were, who were the others she came back to save too?
Here is Admiral Kathryn Janeway’s death from Pallas’ (the third Queen) point of view.
If you chose the think Janeway is wrong as do many, you will find wrong but the very same examples you use to point this out can also be used by someone else to prove she was right in the first place. It's easy to discount 22 deaths but harder if they have names and it's easier to discount character death when you don't care for the characters in the first place.
I don’t think Admiral Kathryn Janeway’s sacrifice was pointless or selfish. It cannot be selfish at all because she chose to die. She may have freed her other self, but she chose to die. Finally, how can you believe that anything that defeats the “Borg” in any way, pointless.
Brit
No there is not hint, but it's a lot of fun to figure out how she could have excaped and what would have happened then. Some really good fan fiction is born like this.
Brit
We can only judge Janeway's actions based on what we were shown during the episode. As the present Janeway said, the future had defences that work against the Borg, and most of the Voyager crew were home and happy. As horrible as it is to say, twenty two people aren't worth the risk of making things much worse, potentially killing 150 and possibly giving the Borg 25th century technology (and thus endangering the whole galaxy). Also she doesn't have the right to alter the lives of everyone else the Voyager crew had contact with in the alternate future (the Doctor's wife? Barclay?)
And there's no way the Borg suffered anything more than a minor setback when their transwarp hub was destroyed and queen 3 (or is it 4?) killed.
Besides, my point about it being "selfish" is if all she did was create a new tangent universe in which events unfolded differently (the way the current Trek writers see things) rather than rewriting "her" timeline (the way the Voyager writers envisioned time travel working).
And there's no way the Borg suffered anything more than a minor setback when their transwarp hub was destroyed and queen 3 (or is it 4?) killed.
Besides, my point about it being "selfish" is if all she did was create a new tangent universe in which events unfolded differently (the way the current Trek writers see things) rather than rewriting "her" timeline (the way the Voyager writers envisioned time travel working).
Yeah, I prefer to think of ST:2009 as an alternate universe, because to think that ALL the TOS adventures/movies never-actually-happened-yet(?) confuses and disturbs me. Besides, with the mirror universe and all, it's totally conceivable that there would be other alternate universes that weren't "evil".
Of course you can believe this but it's just that your belief. James P. Hogan wrote a whole novel based on the fact that you can influence another time line but never your own. Does this also make these characters selfish or pointless? I choose to think that the old Admiral Janeway knowing she couldn't make her own time line better, sacrificed herself to make another one better.
The book by the way is "The Proteus Operation" published in 1985 and here is a Synopsys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Proteus_Operation
You can choose to think of the sacrifice as pointless, but the knowing sacrifice of ones self is never pointless, IMHO it's just that sometimes others are blind to the point.
By the way, we did see the Queen die, we saw lots of Borg cubes destroyed and we saw one of their few transwarp hugs destroyed, and the whole Collective losing their network at least on a temporary basis, so yes this did cause the Borg a lot of trouble.
Brit
The simple fact is that we have no idea whether or not what Janeway did ultimately improved the state of the galaxy. It wouldn't have taken a lot to rewrite the episode to make it clear that that would be the case.
Heck, Stargate: Continuum had a similar scenario, and TPTB in the altered timeline refused to let the characters reset things precisely because it is arrogant presumption to assume one timeline will be any "better" than another unless you have already seen how things will play out.
Hell, for all the flaws of the Mirror Universe, and there are many, the AQ powers there have never had to face the Borg or the Dominion. Ask the folks who suffered during Wolf 359 or the Dominion War if that doesn't lend that universe just the tiniest bit of appeal, even if they'd never admit it.
If TPTB wanted to portray Janeway more sympathetically (and perhaps they didn't) they should have and could have made her motives seem much more altruistic than they did. Insted Future Janeway is little better than Annorax, picking and choosing and imposing upon others the timeline she wants to have.
Heck, Stargate: Continuum had a similar scenario, and TPTB in the altered timeline refused to let the characters reset things precisely because it is arrogant presumption to assume one timeline will be any "better" than another unless you have already seen how things will play out.
Hell, for all the flaws of the Mirror Universe, and there are many, the AQ powers there have never had to face the Borg or the Dominion. Ask the folks who suffered during Wolf 359 or the Dominion War if that doesn't lend that universe just the tiniest bit of appeal, even if they'd never admit it.
If TPTB wanted to portray Janeway more sympathetically (and perhaps they didn't) they should have and could have made her motives seem much more altruistic than they did. Insted Future Janeway is little better than Annorax, picking and choosing and imposing upon others the timeline she wants to have.
TPTB couldn't make the older Admiral's motives altruistic. They were personal, they were her own, no one else's. If she was going back to save her universe from the BORG, a'la Enterprise C going back to die heroically defending that Klingon world from the Romulans, she wouldn't have needed to sneak away. The older Admiral was damaged by her 23 years in the Alpha Quadrant, and she went back to save what crew she could and in effect, save her younger self.
What she found, however, was something more than she bargained for... she found Captain Kathryn Janeway in the prime of her life. Someone who still believed in "fighting the good fight", and the Admiral was transformed. She was, in effect, reborn.
[In the mess hall, late at night.]
ADMIRAL: Oh well, I used to be much more idealistic. I took a lot of risks. I'd been so determined to get this crew home for so many years that I think I forgot how much they loved being together, and how loyal they were to you. It's taken me a few days to realize it. This is your ship, your crew, not mine. I was wrong to lie to you, To think I could talk you out of something you'd set your mind to.
JANEWAY: You were only trying to do what you thought was right for all of us.
ADMIRAL: Well you've changed my mind about that, and I'd like to help you carry out your mission. Maybe together we can increase our odds.
JANEWAY: Maybe we can do more than that. There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it too.
ADMIRAL: We can't destroy the hub and get Voyager home.
JANEWAY: Are you absolutely sure about that?
ADMIRAL: There might be a way. I considered it once, but it seemed too risky.
JANEWAY: That was before you decided to revive your old habits.
ADMIRAL: I don't know why I ever gave this (coffee) up.
[In Admiral Janeway's Shuttle]
ADMIRAL: It's about time. I'm not getting any younger, you know.
JANEWAY: You're sure you want to do this?
ADMIRAL: No, but Voyager isn't big enough for both of us.
JANEWAY: (injects her) Good luck, Admiral.
ADMIRAL: You, too. Captain, I'm glad I got to know you again.
Admiral Janeway embarked on her mission to save her crew. She left Voyager on a new mission... to save her galaxy from the BORG. Was she right? Was she wrong? That's for a greater power to decide, but for those who wish to punish her, consider this.
The only thing the Admiral wanted was her ship and crew safely home. She died in Unimatrix 01, never knowing if they made it.
What she found, however, was something more than she bargained for... she found Captain Kathryn Janeway in the prime of her life. Someone who still believed in "fighting the good fight", and the Admiral was transformed. She was, in effect, reborn.
[In the mess hall, late at night.]
ADMIRAL: Oh well, I used to be much more idealistic. I took a lot of risks. I'd been so determined to get this crew home for so many years that I think I forgot how much they loved being together, and how loyal they were to you. It's taken me a few days to realize it. This is your ship, your crew, not mine. I was wrong to lie to you, To think I could talk you out of something you'd set your mind to.
JANEWAY: You were only trying to do what you thought was right for all of us.
ADMIRAL: Well you've changed my mind about that, and I'd like to help you carry out your mission. Maybe together we can increase our odds.
JANEWAY: Maybe we can do more than that. There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it too.
ADMIRAL: We can't destroy the hub and get Voyager home.
JANEWAY: Are you absolutely sure about that?
ADMIRAL: There might be a way. I considered it once, but it seemed too risky.
JANEWAY: That was before you decided to revive your old habits.
ADMIRAL: I don't know why I ever gave this (coffee) up.
[In Admiral Janeway's Shuttle]
ADMIRAL: It's about time. I'm not getting any younger, you know.
JANEWAY: You're sure you want to do this?
ADMIRAL: No, but Voyager isn't big enough for both of us.
JANEWAY: (injects her) Good luck, Admiral.
ADMIRAL: You, too. Captain, I'm glad I got to know you again.
Admiral Janeway embarked on her mission to save her crew. She left Voyager on a new mission... to save her galaxy from the BORG. Was she right? Was she wrong? That's for a greater power to decide, but for those who wish to punish her, consider this.
The only thing the Admiral wanted was her ship and crew safely home. She died in Unimatrix 01, never knowing if they made it.
DISCLAIMER - I haven't seen the episode in a long time, so I apologize in advance if I'm getting any facts of the episode wrong.
I wouldn't say I want to punish her, though I'd imagine if she ever made it back to Earth and Starfleet was aware of what she'd done there would be, at minimum, a pretty serious court-martial. Before anyone proclaims that punishment, I'd point out that court-martials can and do occur even in situations where it's a forgone conclusion that the defendant didn't do anything wrong. They are standard formalities.
That being said, it's spinning the issue a bit to claim the Admiral -only- wanted her ship and her crew to get home. It's not as though she was ignorant of the far-reaching and potentially disastrous repercussions of her actions.
Who knows how much good Voyager may have done during the time it now hasn't spent getting home? Sure, maybe nothing has changed, but we really have no way of knowing that and there's no reason to assume Janeway's actions had solely positive consequences. Regardless of her reasons, the simple fact that she didn't share her intentions with anyone else, make any attempt to get an objective opinion, is damning enough...how much more self-righteous can someone get?
Perhaps Admiral Janeway originated in a timeline where the Voyager crew never witnessed Annorax's folly.
I wouldn't say I want to punish her, though I'd imagine if she ever made it back to Earth and Starfleet was aware of what she'd done there would be, at minimum, a pretty serious court-martial. Before anyone proclaims that punishment, I'd point out that court-martials can and do occur even in situations where it's a forgone conclusion that the defendant didn't do anything wrong. They are standard formalities.
That being said, it's spinning the issue a bit to claim the Admiral -only- wanted her ship and her crew to get home. It's not as though she was ignorant of the far-reaching and potentially disastrous repercussions of her actions.
Who knows how much good Voyager may have done during the time it now hasn't spent getting home? Sure, maybe nothing has changed, but we really have no way of knowing that and there's no reason to assume Janeway's actions had solely positive consequences. Regardless of her reasons, the simple fact that she didn't share her intentions with anyone else, make any attempt to get an objective opinion, is damning enough...how much more self-righteous can someone get?
Perhaps Admiral Janeway originated in a timeline where the Voyager crew never witnessed Annorax's folly.
I wonder if Future novels will find he alive in the Delta Quadrant.
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