Future Imperfect

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Photon, Jan 15, 2012.

  1. doubleohfive

    doubleohfive Fleet Admiral

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    That's just it... he wasn't driven enough to resurreect her, let alone marry her. If he had been, he WOULD have brought her back. But he didn't.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...Except that, in his supposed "years lost to amnesia", he could have made a different choice. Why does he doubt the facts as presented to him, rather than his own actions during these years he's supposed to have lost?

    Riker could have a very clear self-image, though. Perhaps he hates and fears holo-addiction (as "Hollow Pursuits" might indicate), and is therefore convinced that anything perverse with Minuet in it must be a sinister plot rather than something he'd willingly dabble in?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What was Riker supposed to think? At that time, holo-emitters were nonexistent. Minuet could not possibly exist as a flesh-and-blood human, so logically, any scenario that presented her as one, MUST be fake.
     
  4. MarsWeeps

    MarsWeeps Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    I thought that each episode only adds up to 42 minutes if you cut out the commercials. The TOS days were 52 minutes I think.

    Who knows, maybe the Romulans were behind the whole thing? A perfect way to plant a spy disguised as an alien kid.

    Not necessarily...I could see another episode with the Bynars where they introduce the real flesh and blood Minuet (upon which the holodeck program was based) to Riker, who falls in love with her, etc.
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed, we've seen that many of the most lifelike holocharacters later on have their flesh-and-blood models (even if Vic Fontaine's happens to live - and die - in a parallel universe!).

    Riker couldn't possibly consider what he sees "proof" of anything. But that's not the point: he's doing what conspiracy theorists everywhere engage in, putting together a lot of small pieces that individually amount to nothing but when put together are supposed to mean something. Usually, a thousand nothings put together still only yield nothing. But this time, Riker got it right.

    The same with the bridge scene. "LaForge" is being slow, but Riker doesn't judge him on him being slow - he has already judged, and he now challenges the simulation on grounds of slowness, and wins the challenge. Data is using contractions, which is no proof of anything because that's what Data has been doing from day one - but Riker challenges the simulation over the fact, and again wins. Picard is a nearly perfect simulation, but Riker challenges him, too, and while the simulation remains impeccable, it's the puppeteer behind it that begins to crumble.

    Yes, everything Riker does is understandable and human. It's just not perfectly logical for a 24th century Starfleet officer. But it's not the first time the concepts of the 24th century stand in the way of a good story...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. Flake

    Flake Commodore Commodore

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    No you CAN'T, don't even TRY!

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmvMfhHyBRI[/yt]
     
  7. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps a TNG episode could have been made to that effect, but in this context, Riker had no reason to think it up. If he had thought of it, Barash's holodeck would have made it happen, because it read his thoughts. (Riker's *and* Barash's.)
     
  8. Gil T.Azell

    Gil T.Azell Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I was kind hoping that as well.

    It did .
     
  9. MarsWeeps

    MarsWeeps Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Well, there was a 14 (?) year gap in Riker's memory so he should have realized that there could have been a lot of changes and explanations for things, such as Data's use of contractions. In 14 years, it's not difficult to imagine Data's programming changing to allow the use of contractions.

    Also, Worf's scar, why would Riker imagine that but not imagine an explanation for it?
     
  10. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But Data has never had a problem with using contractions.

    Instead, Data, his own harshest critic, quite counterfactually claims that he has trouble using informal speech patterns in general. But if asked to, he can speak any word or phrase he likes, using early 20th century Gangsta or late 19th century Wharf if required. And Riker is witness to this ability - he doesn't feel Data is doing an impossibility.

    Just as with Data's use of a single contraction, it's a case of Riker challenging the simulation. He has already stopped believing - so whatever Barash offers in the way of "explanation" is immediately shot down, and the poor kid's imagination is getting overwhelmed until he just plain has to give up.

    For all we know, Riker is in fact making the simulation serve his current state of mind, and Barash is unwittingly helping him there. Riker wants to find mistakes and imperfections left and right, so of course he finds them left and right!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  11. MarsWeeps

    MarsWeeps Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    It's well established in the series that Data cannot use contractions, his programming doesn't allow it. It's stated in several episodes, even though there are times (at least one) that he uses a contraction and the editors didn't catch it.
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Uh, completely untrue. There is no episode that would make the claim that Data cannot use contractions.

    Instead,

    1) In "Datalore", Lore's use of a non-contracted form and other stilted patterns of speech make Wesley think Lore is Data - and Lore reinforces this false conclusion by stating that "I do use language more formally than Lore". Nothing there about Data being unable to use contractions - not even when his worst nemesis is actually doing the claiming.

    2) in "The Offspring", Data is impressed at Lal's effortless command of language, stating "You have used a contraction; it is a skill my program has never mastered". Considering that Data by that time has used contractions in virtually every episode, Data's standards of "mastery" simply appear overtly strict. Data also thinks he hasn't mastered sneezing, yet is quite capable of it.

    In short, the "Data cannot use contractions" is a complete urban myth, a bit like "Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet". It's something that might be part of the character, but isn't, and never was.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. Sandoval

    Sandoval Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Guys, can you all stop arguing with Sheldon please?
     
  14. MarsWeeps

    MarsWeeps Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    I was pretty sure there were episodes that mentioned it but I'm too lazy to go try to dig them up.

    But, like all Trek, one episode often contradicted another.
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...So, "Data cannot use contradictions" must be true because this is contradicted by not just a few, but (better still) all the episodes?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. MarsWeeps

    MarsWeeps Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Look...I'm just going by memory and from what I remember about the series, it was made known that Data couldn't use contractions (or wasn't supposed to be able to use them.) I thought it was kind of a stupid point anyway. Why would Riker bring it up in the episode if he thought Data could use contractions all the time?

    Some of your posts are interesting but you seem to want everyone to accept that you are THE authority on all things Trek. Is that why you sign your name to each and every post, just to make sure people accept that "fact"? :wtf:
     
  17. Sandoval

    Sandoval Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'd always assumed it was a form of OCD.
     
  18. Bisz

    Bisz Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Shut up! As in close your mouth and stop talking!

    I love that line :mallory:
     
  19. Holdfast

    Holdfast Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    OK, OK, folks, try to avoid it becoming personal digs or it rapidly devolves into trollery.
     
  20. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What is OCD?

    No.

    Also, "fact"? It's not one of the fuzzy areas, where Trek is silly fiction and can't really be right or wrong. It's a matter of quotes. You got it 100% wrong. I pointed out what the facts (irrelevant but still irrefutable) are, although anybody could have done that. Why do you find pride in the concept of being wrong and not caring? That's positively subhuman.

    Sorry, should have rephrased.

    Negatively subhuman.

    Timo Saloniemi