"Future Imperfect" - Riker gets it all wrong

[marsh8472]

I love your idea, but to me I still feel this is not about marriage rights but rather about her being a fictional character.

Doesn't Rikers bias (and the writer's) about holograms being fictional characters have just as much to do with it?

Look, feel free to come up with ways to justify your belief. I don't care. All I'm saying is that your premise is wrong. "Future Imperfect" does not have a plothole because the episode clearly shows that basing Min on Minuet was a mistake and the alien boy did not have foreknowledge of the future.

My only belief was that given the available evidence, discovering that he was married to Minuet was not sufficient proof that all of reality is an illusion. He could have asked "Wait I met her on the holodeck, how is that possible?" instead of making up his own conclusions about reality.

 

[Dukhat]

Doesn't Rikers bias (and the writer's) about holograms being fictional characters have just as much to do with it?

No, that's just something you're taking out of context to justify your argument here. At the time, the writers of the episode didn't know anything about what another Trek show would do in the future as far as holograms are concerned. The idea that's as plain as the nose on my face was that Min was based on a fictional character which allows Riker to realize that it's all an illusion. It has nothing whatsoever to do with any 'bias' about holograms.

My only belief was that given the available evidence, discovering that he was married to Minuet was not sufficient proof that all of reality is an illusion. He could have asked "Wait I met her on the holodeck, how is that possible?" instead of making up his own conclusions about reality.

I'm starting to sound like a broken record now, but the proof is that NO ONE TOLD HIM. Riker has lost his memory and knows nothing about life for the last 20 years. Don't you think that the first thing someone would tell him is that he was married to a hologram, since that wouldn't have been the norm back in his day?

 

[Herbert]

Sure Riker was tipped off that he was being deceived when he notices he was married to a hologram. But technically holograms do marry organics in the future.

ummm, what? Seriously, what?????
My god! It's getting to the point where I can't click into a single thread without reading endless half baked theories.

Can anyone one point me to a forum on this board that;s immune to these hyjinks? Seriously, help a brotha out. I might have to stick to the caption contest threads and ignore everything else.

 

[marsh8472]

No, that's just something you're using right now to justify your argument here. At the time, the writers of the episode didn't know anything about what another Trek show would do in the future.

At the time it made more sense. Looking back on it knowing what we know now we can see that Riker wasn't being very rational there.

I'm starting to sound like a broken record now, but the proof is that NO ONE TOLD HIM. Riker has lost his memory and knows nothing about life for the last 20 years. Don't you think that the first thing someone would tell him is that he was married to a hologram, since that wouldn't have been the norm back in his day?

Even if I were to agree that not telling him counts as evidence I wouldn't say it qualifies as sufficient evidence to conclude that all of reality is an illusion. At the end people tried to give explainations for his concerns but he just wouldn't listen.

 

[Marynator]

I actually feel that @Dukhat makes an absolutely wonderful point.

Like if I woke up 20 years in the future and didn't remember anything, and if this happened I'm pretty sure someone would tell me "Remember you used to love that character Data from Star Trek? Well we found out how to make him a real man, and you married him, but sadly he died.". I feel pretty certain that's not something they'd just leave me to find out on my own, lol, and then think I'd gone completely insane.

 

[Dukhat]

At the time it made more sense. Looking back on it knowing what we know now we can see that Riker wasn't being very rational there.

Riker was being completely rational.

Even if I were to agree that not telling him counts as evidence I wouldn't say it qualifies as sufficient evidence to conclude that all of reality is an illusion. At the end people tried to give explanations for his concerns but he just wouldn't listen.

So what would qualify as "sufficient evidence" for you?

 

[marsh8472]

I actually feel that @Dukhat makes an absolutely wonderful point.

Like if I woke up 20 years in the future and didn't remember anything, and if this happened I'm pretty sure someone would tell me "Remember you used to love that character Data from Star Trek? Well we found out how to make him a real man, and you married him, but sadly he died.". I feel pretty certain that's not something they'd just leave me to find out on my own, lol, and then think I'd gone completely insane.

Yea I get that but on the other hand we know holograms are able to leave the holodeck and get married in the future too. Is that imperfect future really so impossible now that we know that?

 

[marsh8472]

Riker was being completely rational.



So what would qualify as "sufficient evidence" for you?

In "ship in a bottle" where Data threw his comm badge at the holodeck wall to expose it.

 

[Marynator]

ummm, what? Seriously, what?????
My god! It's getting to the point where I can't click into a single thread without reading endless half baked theories. have to stick to the caption contest threads and ignore everything else.

Oh no please don't do that! I see you making so many wonderful contributions to discussions around here.

I don't agree with marsh8472's theory, but I feel it was so very interesting to think about, and I see where he's coming from, I feel he and I just don't feel the same way about the nature of Minuet.

@marsh8472 I feel it's different because like the Doctor was sentient first, while all Will knew was that Minuet was a fictional character created by the Binars. He found her so very attractive, but he wouldn't ever have dreamed he'd marry her, so to me it makes absolutely perfect sense that he'd find it too strange to believe.

 

[Dukhat]

Yea I get that but on the other hand we know holograms are able to leave the holodeck and get married in the future too. Is that imperfect future really so impossible now that we know that?

Why do you keep bringing up something that has nothing to do with the episode?

In "ship in a bottle" where Data threw his comm badge at the holodeck wall to expose it.

So if Riker had just done that you'd be ok with him realizing that he's in an illusion, but nobody telling him that he was married to a hologram isn't good enough for you?

 

[marsh8472]

Why do you keep bringing up something that has nothing to do with the episode?

Because it's canon and admissible evidence that he was not in an illusion.

So if Riker had just done that you'd be ok with him realizing that he's in an illusion, but nobody telling him that he was married to a hologram isn't good enough for you?

Yea it wouldn't have been enough for me. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. He could have been in a parallel reality too. But he comes to conclude that he's being deceived into thinking he's in the future with his memory erased which on its own is unrealistic but doesn't bother to ask why would someone create an unrealistic story to fool him if it was their intention was to fool him?

 

[Marynator]

He had a reason! He thought the Romulans wanted the location of a secret outpost.

 

[marsh8472]

He had a reason! He thought the Romulans wanted the location of a secret outpost.

They had to tell him that. Why couldn't they use the mind scanner instead? The episode reminds me of when Neo gets out of the Matrix for the first time and doesn't believe what Morpheus tells him except in this case it would be like Morpheus responding "oh darn it, I really thought I had you there".

 

[Dukhat]

Because it's canon and admissible evidence that he was not in an illusion.

It doesn't matter that it's canon. The point is that if that future was indeed real, no one told him he was married to a hologram when that would have been one of the most important pieces of information he could have been given post-revival. Just the way he reacts once he realizes this is proof enough that someone should have mentioned this to him earlier if it was real. Since you seem to want to ignore this because it doesn't fit with your theory, I have nothing further to say on the matter.

But he comes to conclude that he's being deceived into thinking he's in the future with his memory erased which on its own is unrealistic but doesn't bother to ask why would someone create an unrealistic story to fool him if it was their intention was to fool him?

So, waking up after 20 years with an erased memory is unrealistic to you, but being married to a hologram is just fine?

 

[marsh8472]

It doesn't matter that it's canon. The point is that if that future was indeed real, no one told him he was married to a hologram when that would have been one of the most important pieces of information he could have been given post-revival. Just the way he reacts once he realizes this is proof enough that someone should have mentioned this to him earlier if it was real. Since you seem to want to ignore this because it doesn't fit with your theory, I have nothing further to say on the matter.

But no one told him he had a son either until they showed him. They said it was attempt to trigger his memory. Because no one mentions something to him does not automatically make the opposite of that something true.

So, waking up after 20 years with an erased memory is unrealistic to you, but being married to a hologram is just fine?

Yes it falls within the realm of possiblity because we see holograms pair up with real people in the future.

 

[Dukhat]

But no one told him he had a son either until they showed him. They said it was attempt to trigger his memory. Because no one mentions something to him does not automatically make the opposite of that something true.

So they try to trigger his memory by showing him his son, but telling him his wife was a hologram would not have been a trigger as well? Especially since the whole idea of her being "dead" would be highly dubious if she were a hologram. They could have just made another hologram of her to trigger his memory then instead of just showing him old videos of her.

Yes it falls within the realm of possiblity because we see holograms pair up with real people in the future.

Again, since you want to ignore the fact that what we see in Endgame has nothing whatsoever to do with the intentions of the episode, I'm done debating this.

 

[marsh8472]

So they try to trigger his memory by showing him his son, but telling him his wife was a hologram would not have been a trigger as well? Especially since the whole idea of her being "dead" would be highly dubious if she were a hologram. They could have just made another hologram of her to trigger his memory then instead of just showing him old videos of her.

They could show him his wife instead of tell him for the same reason they showed him his son instead of telling him.

Again, since you want to ignore the fact that what we see in Endgame has nothing whatsoever to do with the intentions of the episode, I'm done debating this.

Both "End Game" and "Future Imperfect" are about perceptions of the future. I'm sure their intention at the time was to make Riker look clever since at the time it was believed that holograms could not exist outside of the holodeck. But after more story development he comes across more as ignorant of future technology and more irrational about the way he handled that. He's lucky he just happened to be right. I'm sure he would have been embarrassed if he had been wrong there.

 

[Marynator]

If everything else had been fine and that was just the one thing then I'm sure he would have just been curious! But it was the last straw for him, and he wasn't stupid lol.

I still feel you are trying very, very hard to make a square peg fit.

 

[Dukhat]

They could show him his wife instead of tell him for the same reason they showed him his son instead of telling him.

I'm pretty sure it would be more shocking to me to learn that I'd married a hologram than if I'd had a son. Yet everyone ignores the obvious, more shocking choice (if Min was indeed a hologram.)

Both "End Game" and "Future Imperfect" are about perceptions of the future.

There's a difference. One is a fabricated idea of the future based on what they knew at their present time. The other is the actual future, albeit from an alternate universe.

But after more story development he comes across more as ignorant of future technology and more irrational about the way he handled that. He's lucky he just happened to be right. I'm sure he would have been embarrassed if he had been wrong there.

What's funny is that there's no evidence he feels any different about holograms later on than he does before.

 

[marsh8472]

If everything else had been fine and that was just the one thing then I'm sure he would have just been curious! But it was the last straw for him, and he wasn't stupid lol.

I still feel you are trying very, very hard to make a square peg fit.

This

RIKER: The Enterprise? my son you created it all.
TOMALAK: With the help of our neural scanners and what you would call a holodeck. Now, please tell me. How did you discover the truth? The future we constructed for you should have been convincing.
RIKER: It wasn't. There was a computer time lag, for one thing.
TOMALAK: Unavoidable. Our scanners have a limited response time, so whenever you strayed from our expectations. But surely that was not enough to
RIKER: To smash your house of cards? No. It was the visual record of my wife, Minuet. Bad move.
TOMALAK: But we chose someone from your past who is still alive. A woman you were extremely attracted to
RIKER: Your mistake, Tomalak. Minuet was nothing more than a computer generated fantasy I once experienced on another holodeck.
TOMALAK: Impossible. In your mind that woman exists, physically. Your feelings toward her remain quite passionate.
RIKER: She was part of a very special programme.


Mainly the time lag thing and having a holographic wife convinced him it looks like. Peace with Romulans, Ferengi in Star Fleet, Data figuring out how to use contractions are plausible but he acted like those were tip offs too.