Frustrations with Trek lit...
- Thread starter Overgeeked
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Maybe I'm a little slow, but does it matter whether what Q showed Picard was a potential future timeline or an elaborately-constructed illusion? There's no practical way for our heroes to settle the matter one way or another.
Picard reacts as if the events are real, and if Q was going to include the twist of Picard being stricken with an illness, why go to the trouble of inventing one rather than simply giving him one that would already be known to exist?
Though, come to that, why does it matter whether Irumodic Syndrome is a real (for Our Heroes) disease or one that Q invented which everyone in the events Picard experienced accepted as real?
To me, this seems like a possible case of us spending far more time on a matter of minutiae than it merits.
...not that that's ever stopped us before...
Picard reacts as if the events are real, and if Q was going to include the twist of Picard being stricken with an illness, why go to the trouble of inventing one rather than simply giving him one that would already be known to exist?
Though, come to that, why does it matter whether Irumodic Syndrome is a real (for Our Heroes) disease or one that Q invented which everyone in the events Picard experienced accepted as real?
To me, this seems like a possible case of us spending far more time on a matter of minutiae than it merits.
...not that that's ever stopped us before...
I think that, like most recurring superbeings in fiction, Q's power was amplified over time from what it was originally intended to be. In "Encounter at Farpoint," the Q were certainly powerful, but they seemed to reside only in a particular region of space (which was why they didn't put humanity "on trial" until we reached their part of the galaxy) and their force-field barrier turned into a sort of ship which chased after the Enterprise. So there were limitations on what they seemed capable of doing. Their powers and ubiquity were ramped up considerably in the second Q episode, "Hide and Q," with the Q Continuum being established as "the limitless dimensions of the galaxy in which we exist" and the Q's powers including the ability to resurrect the dead, turn Data human, etc. But the word "omnipotent" wasn't used to describe Q until "Deja Q."
Still, even in the beginning, it was established that Q wasn't just creating illusions. In "Farpoint," Troi told Picard that the "Post-Atomic Horror" courtroom environment was somehow real, not an illusion -- although it occurs to me that it could just be that it was an illusion convincing enough to fool Betazoid senses.
FWIW Voyages of Imaginations sets chapter 3 of the "Encounter at Farpoint" novelization in 2079, so at least according to their timeline Q actually brought them back in time.
Part of that is to do with omnipotence only working if only one being is. If you have two, a can always undo what b has done, and the continuum executes judgements against its own including making them mortal, meaning that they are omnipotent...until they run into another omnipotent being. Granted, that stretches the definition of the the word, but it just about hangs.
Makes me wish someone had asked Q "How do you have superiors if you're omnipotent? What, are they MORE omnipotent?"
Although, knowing Q, the answer would probably have been 'yes.'
Zeus was superior to Hermes. Odin was superior to Loki. Just because gods are all-powerful, that doesn't mean they don't have hierarchies.
To be fair, that's not really a good analogy since the Greek and Norse gods weren't all-powerful. The contemporary Greeks and Norse wouldn't have even understood why someone would think such, since of course there are things they can't do. The idea of literal omnipotence as a quality of a god didn't really come about until the Abrahamic religions, I believe? I know that it's not specifically a monotheism thing, because even Ahura Mazda explicitly wasn't omnipotent according to Zoroaster.
I doubt the Q are either. Any powerful being seems all-powerful to those with less power. But every entity is subject to some limits. Sure, Q says he's omnipotent, but he's very, very full of himself. He's also claimed to be God. I don't think his statements about himself can be taken literally.
Oh wait, you were giving a response that Q might have given? I thought you were giving a response to the idea of omnipotent beings having superiors being supported in myth. My mistake!
AGT throws a wrench in that a bit, as by leading Picard to his solution he is literally responsible for humanities creation. awkward.
I, at least I don't think, I ever called them illusions. They are fantasies, but the line between fantasy and reality is a fine line for a Q.
No, I'm saying Q's fantasy is unreliable. It cannot be used as proof of anything, like any unreliable source. And let's be honest, derailing the ending of the episode (and the series) for a pedantic debate over which details of Q's fantasy were and weren't credible is an awful idea. Which, thankfully, is why they didn't do that. You can't cite that as proof one way or another.
I don't think Q has ever actually been shown sending anyone back and forth through the timeline. Probably because he doesn't even perceive of a single timeline, and/or has the ability to will one into existence at his leisure. I'm *not* saying he doesn't have that ability ('if our hero's can do it, Q can too' seems to be a good assumption). He just doesn't.
By extension, Picard knows this. He tried not playing along back in Farpoint and it got him nowhere. He knows he *has* to assume everything is real (if only for the sake and length of the game) if he's ever going to get back to his life. Playing along is only proof that Picard understands that resistance to Q is futile.
And, sure, none of this matters and is utterly pedantic and pointless, but I (at least) have never had this particular debate and have been enjoying it thus far. Honestly, any debate over the nature of Q is interesting. He's a great character. I hope to see him again on screen some day.
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Not all of them. There's always been two Qs, the jovial trickster and the deadly serious. John de Lancie did a great job of switching between the two sides, often in the same scene. His mannerisms and and composure switches in an instant. Contrast his performance during his claim to be God with his lecture in Q Who about how space is not for the timid. Whether or not his statements are to be taken literally depends on context.
I, as a rule, avoid Voyager. Still, I'm not sure "bring forward" means the same thing to Q as it does to us. Conjuring an identical person would be effectively the same thing. From our perspective its a meaningless distinction.
Still, it's not something Q does himself very often. Quinn, being a different Q, may have his own preferences.
The Robin Hood scenario may or may not have been an illusion. The Nacene, among other higher dimensional species can create unique environments. Like the Captain's Table or Q'S Winter Wonderland. The separation of reality from illusion becomes irrelevant at that level. Unlike with the limitations of a holodeck.
Now, AGT showed a probable future. We got the Negh'Var and Olympic classes. And I like to think that Starfleet is going to refit at least some Galaxy-class cruisers into dreadnoughts within the decade.
Now, AGT showed a probable future. We got the Negh'Var and Olympic classes. And I like to think that Starfleet is going to refit at least some Galaxy-class cruisers into dreadnoughts within the decade.
From a point where he was wearing the old-style communicator pin but also knew Janeway was Captain of Voyager.
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