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FounderBashir's actions in The Begotten

I don't really buy the "we don't harm other Changelings, hence we don't harm Odo" party line. The Dominion on multiple occasions did its damnedest to kill Odo, fir example by sending Jem'Hadar vessels to blow up a ship aboard which Odo was known to travel - in "The Die is Cast", "Treachery, Faith and the Great River", and even "The Adversary" where Odo's killing of a Founder who tried to kill him is somehow seen as ungentlemanly.

It may be that Changelings before "The Adversary" hadn't fought, harmed or killed each other for time immemoriam. But that apparently was no obstacle to them quickly catching on and starting to harm each other (read: Odo, although theoretically there could have been other dissidents as well) for the usual reasons of "irreconciliable disagreement", "he was on my way" and so forth.

Now, if they still persisted with the propaganda of "we don't harm each other", then we have to redefine "harm" to agree with what we saw. In which case offing the tiny Changelinglet in "The Begotten" would probably not qualify as "harm", either...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Timo said:
Quite possibly. Then again, it's currently good manners not to try and assassinate the real culprits even in times of war, but to only kill, hurt and maim their underlings and subjects of varying degrees of guilt. The explicit aim of coalition forces to assassinate Saddam in the two recent wars with him was somewhat out of line with established US doctrine and commitments in that respect.

Usually for reasons other than politeness, although I admit such concerns have shaped the manner in which a number of conflicts--in the West--turned out. The foremost example is of course Napoleon after Fountainbleu, upon whom the allies honored their agreements. However, a number of counterexamples come to mind, most immediately Yamamoto--a soldier, yes, but in essence a mover in the Imperial Japanese government. The concern over killing Soviet leaders (and their concern over killing ours) in any prospective nuclear war was born out of a need to have someone to negotiate with. This of course is somewhat discredited now, but before nukes became true world-enders (still an inflated description imo, civilization-ender is a better descriptor) graduated response was a feasible notion.

In the case of the Founders, the idea must have been to let them die and allow the Vorta to succeed to the command of the Dominion, in the hopes they could be negotiated with more successfully. Personally, I doubt this would have happened, although Weyoun (both standard-issue and defective) showed signs of apostasy in Treachery, Faith, and the Great River, and Keevan was practically an out-and-out traitor by Vorta standards.

OTOH, guilt of war could easily be extended to any number of underlings, subjects and bystanders, as was done in WWII where civilian populations were explicitly considered valid targets by the various parties - both in terms of "collective guilt" and in the concrete sense of each of them contributing to the war effort, however indirectly.
It would be difficult to assign such guilt to, say, the Jem'Hadar or the Vorta. The Founders on the other hand appear to all have had a part in the decisionmaking process, however superhuman and mysterious that process was.

A good question - but then again, in "Heart of Stone" Odo was in no way amazed that the Founder imitating Kira had in-depth information on DS9 events and happenstances. As in really in-depth, phrases spoken, holodeck mishaps suffered, the works.

We should assume that there were Founder agents on the station constantly at least from the second season on, doing extensive groundwork. Some probably remained till the very last, that is, the evacuation at the end of "Sacrifice of Angels". Whether they were shapeshifters or other operatives is unknown, but I'd be perfectly ready to believe in a Founder or five being present at all times.
Then a follow-up question: would mental scan techniques reveal the existence of a Changeling in place of a solid? Or would a Betazoid or Talosian or whoever be fooled by a potentially perfect copy--a biochemically, neurologically exact replica?

I tend to think the latter, given the recourse to telepathic techniques available to the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans, mind-melds, Betazoids, Medusans, mind-probes. Eventually, you'd think they'd just set up restraining devices like the one Tain gave Garak to work Odo with everywhere, but it's eminently possible and perhaps probable that it was only effective against Odo's poor stats.:p

Of course, this dictates that the true consciousness of the Founder exists somewhere else other than the physical form, but in a way we knew that already, since their mass is obviously inconstant as well (Odo the Bird flies but Odo the Dude can hurt you when he punches you in the face). I have a half-baked theory about how Founders are close to living transporter/replicator units with extremely low waste heat, but nothing concrete on this.

OTOH, Dr. Bashir might have been an ideal choice for abduction, as he was known to be somewhat detached from the community by his irritating mannerisms and sheer snobistry (both probably conscious choices, to better hide the dirty genetic engineering secret he harbored). Few people on the station probably had an inkling of what he did even when he was himself, professionally or privately speaking. And O'Brien had a good radar for such things in other episodes, but Bashir might have been too fluid a character for even the Chief to fully grasp.
You've got to wonder how bored the Changeling was shooting down Messerschmitts over the Channel.

The Dominion on multiple occasions did its damnedest to kill Odo, fir example by sending Jem'Hadar vessels to blow up a ship aboard which Odo was known to travel

In fairness, that ordinarily wasn't the Founders, it was the Vorta political officers or Jem'Hadar operational commanders, who may not have known or had reason to know Odo was aboard at any particular time, or, fearful of their masters, simply decided to avoid the question and do what seemed best at the moment. That would have been the typically Solid response, I'd wager.:p At the least, the Dominion bureaucracy appeared to allow the Founders significant free time.

On a throwaway note, I wonder how far in the forefront of Ron Moore's mind the Founders were when he was creating BSG. Very similar theme, and very similar nitpicks.
 
They just haphazardly retconned the FounderBashir thing into old episodes where it cannot fit. There is no legitimate way to reconcile this sloppy writing of FounderBashir in any of the retconned episodes, since he was just normal Bashir at the time they were written.
 
There is if mature (not Odo) Founders can replicate thoughts and memories, which after all is consistent with their ability to replicate individual cells.

On the other hand, if they can't control the cohesion of their blood when separate from them, how do they control the cohesion of their sloughed off skin cells? These things are eminently detectable. I submit they must be able to control the cohesion of blood, because that's got to be easier controlling that than a minute trail of Bashir skin across the promenade.
 
On the other hand, if they can't control the cohesion of their blood when separate from them, how do they control the cohesion of their sloughed off skin cells? These things are eminently detectable. I submit they must be able to control the cohesion of blood, because that's got to be easier controlling that than a minute trail of Bashir skin across the promenade.

Let's remember just who suggested that separated blood is a valid means of Founder detection...

In "The Adversary", it was Odo, whose limited skills in shapeshifting are well known. He might have been completely mistaken there.

In "Way of the Warrior", it was the Founder imitating General Martok! Whether he had suggested the test for his fellow Klingons all by himself, or was merely reading the intelligence reports Sisko wrote after "The Adversary" and fostering Starfleet's tragic misconceptions, it's obvious that he was confident the test would fail.

While Joe Sisko in "Homefront" suggests that a Founder could evade the blood test by hiding a supply of real blood inside himself, it's just as possible that this is unnecessary, and that adult Founders can easily create permanent imitations of blood droplets. For all we know, adult Founders can create permanent perfect imitations (that is, permanent real things) of pretty much anything and everything, given enough time and enough raw materials. And the latter they could siphon off from their environs. Perhaps the Founders are the mirror image of the Jem'Hadar in this respect: they don't eat as youngsters, but do eat when they grow older and begin to feel the need to synthesize all sorts of stuff (blood, skin flakes, odors) for more complete illusions.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The Dominion on multiple occasions did its damnedest to kill Odo, fir example by sending Jem'Hadar vessels to blow up a ship aboard which Odo was known to travel

In fairness, that ordinarily wasn't the Founders, it was the Vorta political officers or Jem'Hadar operational commanders, who may not have known or had reason to know Odo was aboard at any particular time, or, fearful of their masters, simply decided to avoid the question and do what seemed best at the moment. That would have been the typically Solid response, I'd wager.:p At the least, the Dominion bureaucracy appeared to allow the Founders significant free time.
Indeed - in Treachery, Faith & the Great River, which Timo namechecked as an example of the Dominion trying to kill Odo, Damar talks Weyoun 7 into shooting to kill Odo & W6, and W7 goes to lengths to avoid either the Jem'Hadar who are doing the shooting or the Female Changeling herself from finding out that Odo was aboard. [One wonders, in light of that, whether W7 didn't suffer from a lesser version of W6's "flaws" since he was able to give that order and conceal what he knew...]

On the other hand, if they can't control the cohesion of their blood when separate from them, how do they control the cohesion of their sloughed off skin cells? These things are eminently detectable. I submit they must be able to control the cohesion of blood, because that's got to be easier controlling that than a minute trail of Bashir skin across the promenade.

Let's remember just who suggested that separated blood is a valid means of Founder detection...

In "The Adversary", it was Odo, whose limited skills in shapeshifting are well known. He might have been completely mistaken there.

In "Way of the Warrior", it was the Founder imitating General Martok! Whether he had suggested the test for his fellow Klingons all by himself, or was merely reading the intelligence reports Sisko wrote after "The Adversary" and fostering Starfleet's tragic misconceptions, it's obvious that he was confident the test would fail.

While Joe Sisko in "Homefront" suggests that a Founder could evade the blood test by hiding a supply of real blood inside himself, it's just as possible that this is unnecessary, and that adult Founders can easily create permanent imitations of blood droplets.
Well, we know for a fact that they can for one simple reason: Odo, from the S4 finale to The Begotten, was "locked" into a specific form - and Bashir was able to take blood samples without it changing to "changeling goo". He was still a Changeling, but the Founders had taken away his control.
 
^Good catch on that. The Founders were able to build a perfectly functional humanoid body, and they used their morphogenic goo. No reason to think they couldn't do this all the time.
 
They definitely could do more than shapeshift. In order to fool tricorders the way they do, they'd either need to have some sort of a tricorder jammer, or then they'd have to really become what they pretended to be - down to a great level of detail. They couldn't plausibly mimic a seagull, for example, without mimicing its tendency to shed skin flakes and feathers, or its characteristic odor. All that would require the ability to create permanently detached small particulates that would pass muster.

Considering Odo's punishment, it would seem that the Founders indeed fully become what they mimic, rather than, say, becoming a stone only skin deep and remaining Founder goo inside. But that begs the question of how where their essence resides. If a Founder becomes a perfect rock, how can it later become a rat or a chair? Perfect rocks can't usually do that! So supposedly the Founderness of a Founder resides somewhere beyond the reach of tricorders, perhaps in some sort of an alternate dimension, and can transform the matter in our dimension with perfect accuracy and permanence. Odo's punishment would then have involved locking his Founderness in that alternate dimension, rather than actually manipulating his physical self...

Timo Saloniemi
 
I like to suppose fundamental existence of the Founders rests on the field interactions of photons and W, W-, and Z bosons. Presuming control over electroweak interactions, I think they'd be able to rearrange matter on the subatomic level. I am not sure about this.
 
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