For you long-time fans, did people know Nemesis would be the final TNG film pre-release?

[Allyn Gibson]

maybe there was some thinking about doing Trek VII with the original cast for 94 (Ashes of Eden written and directed by Shatner ) and have TNG end the same year and then do a Generations movie for 96 (30th)? (then again maybe not)

Ashes of Eden was Shatner's idea for the seventh Star Trek film, just as The Return was his idea for the eighth.

In retrospect, I think that Berman, when he was handed the reins of the film franchise in 1992, should have made one more classic cast film and then done the crossover film for the 30th-anniversary.

 

[timtonruben359]

Ashes of Eden was Shatner's idea for the seventh Star Trek film, just as The Return was his idea for the eighth.

In retrospect, I think that Berman, when he was handed the reins of the film franchise in 1992, should have made one more classic cast film and then done the crossover film for the 30th-anniversary.

Personally I think Berman should have had nothing to do with the movies period. Paramount should have hired a producer who had experience making movies.

 

[wayoung]

Personally I think Berman should have had nothing to do with the movies period. Paramount should have hired a producer who had experience making movies.

Like Harve Bennet did?

I agree though that having the same creative team on the movies as on the shows was a mistake. TOS to TOS films worked because they had different people behind them, and different people than working on TNG, plus the big break between the show and the films. The first three TNG movies were made immediately after the series ended, concurrent with two other TV shows being aired (whose overall aesthetics it still had to match and fit into) directed by the TV shows directors, written by the TV shows writers, and produced by the TV shows producers. No wonder they felt like overlong episodes to the TV series.

 

[urbandefault]

At the time I thought for sure it was the last one. The wedding scene with Picard's "end of an era" speechifying, Data's death, all said they didn't expect to come back. But they didn't completely shut the door, leaving an opening for Data's return if they thought they could milk it for one more. It was not meant to be.

Probably a good thing.

 

[Relayer1]

I'd been kind of hoping each one was the last (I'm not fond of the TNG movies) but didn't actually expect them to finish there...

 

[Nebusj]

My recollection is that Nemesis had the stench of death well ahead of its release, with word months ahead of the release that this was just going to be dreadful. I recall, on rec.arts.startrek.tech and on rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc, a lot of snickering at proclamations from Berman and Spiner and Stewart that this was going to be the best one yet and they'd got an antagonist who'd be as good as Khan. And that while this would wrap up the Next Generation cast's story they had great story points to build a sequel if response was strong enough. But we weren't buying it.

But then rumors in, say, October about how awful the movie was going to be doesn't really tell us whether when production started whether it was clearly the end. Although the plot points baked into the story make it hard to suppose they weren't figuring on this being Almost Certainly The End, At Least For An Indefinite Time.

I could be way off, though. Through early November 2002 I was hard at work finishing and defending my thesis, and after that getting my life in order to move to my postgraduate posting in Singapore. So I wasn't as connected to what other fans were hearing as I would have been another year.

 

[timtonruben359]

Like Harve Bennet did?

I agree though that having the same creative team on the movies as on the shows was a mistake. TOS to TOS films worked because they had different people behind them, and different people than working on TNG, plus the big break between the show and the films. The first three TNG movies were made immediately after the series ended, concurrent with two other TV shows being aired (whose overall aesthetics it still had to match and fit into) directed by the TV shows directors, written by the TV shows writers, and produced by the TV shows producers. No wonder they felt like overlong episodes to the TV series.

True Harve Bennett was not a movie producer, but clearly bringing someone new who didn't have the same connection or views on Star Trek that Roddenberry had is what allowed the TOS movie franchise to grow and be successful beyond TMP. It's interesting to read more recent interviews with many of the writers involved in Trek in the mid to late 90s, clearly many felt that Berman's running of the franchise had become a problem by this time. Even Michael Piller during the second season of Voyager could see the franchise was going downhill but his battles behind the scenes with Jeri Taylor and to a lesser extent Berman resulted in him 'agreeing to leave.'

 

[Lance]

They kept advertising it as "A Generation's Final Journey Begins".

Which sounds like the studio trying to have a bet each way: like they were trying to suggest to the audience, 'This Is It Folks, We're Finally Winding Things Up This Time!', while still leaving the way open to give us at least one more sequel if they wanted one.

The undertaking that I remember at the time was that most of us anticipated this would be the last time the entire crew were seen together. Patrick Stewart's paycheque was getting too rich for Paramount (as he was on the up-and-up with the X-Men franchise at the time), so even in the event of a sequel there was a kind of expectation that it wouldn't be the entire TNG cast, just whatever they could stretch their money towards. Splitting the crew up at the end of NEM still makes this viable, as you might only need to re-employ Stewart, Dorn and Burton, and maybe McFadden if the deleted scene of her departure to Starfleet Medical was nullified in this hypothetical sequel. Spiner had written himself out, and they weren't obligated to include Frakes or Sirtis anymore, given that they too had been written off.

Chances are they may have been willing to match Stewart's paycheque for another movie at the expense of dropping nearly all the other regular cast. Whether there was an appetite for that is another matter.

 

[Khan 2.0]

They kept advertising it as "A Generation's Final Journey Begins".

Which sounds like the studio trying to have a bet each way: like they were trying to suggest to the audience, 'This Is It Folks, We're Finally Winding Things Up This Time!', while still leaving the way open to give us at least one more sequel if they wanted one.

Yes that 'final journey begins' tagline had the feel of a carefully worded letter from a highly trained lawyer

The undertaking that I remember at the time was that most of us anticipated this would be the last time the entire crew were seen together. Patrick Stewart's paycheque was getting too rich for Paramount (as he was on the up-and-up with the X-Men franchise at the time), so even in the event of a sequel there was a kind of expectation that it wouldn't be the entire TNG cast, just whatever they could stretch their money towards. Splitting the crew up at the end of NEM still makes this viable, as you might only need to re-employ Stewart, Dorn and Burton, and maybe McFadden if the deleted scene of her departure to Starfleet Medical was nullified in this hypothetical sequel. Spiner had written himself out, and they weren't obligated to include Frakes or Sirtis anymore, given that they too had been written off.

Yes since Insurrection hed been effectively become the star of XMen so I remember the thinking was STX might be more of an event (and I remember reading there were strenuous discussions regarding his fee. I can imagine his agent being like 'well Patrick is now the star of he highly successful XMen franchise')

Chances are they may have been willing to match Stewart's paycheque for another movie at the expense of dropping nearly all the other regular cast. Whether there was an appetite for that is another matter.

Bet that wouldve gone down well with the others. Oh you can't be in this one as Patrick wants all the money lol

 

[timtonruben359]

My recollection is that Nemesis had the stench of death well ahead of its release, with word months ahead of the release that this was just going to be dreadful. I recall, on rec.arts.startrek.tech and on rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc, a lot of snickering at proclamations from Berman and Spiner and Stewart that this was going to be the best one yet and they'd got an antagonist who'd be as good as Khan. And that while this would wrap up the Next Generation cast's story they had great story points to build a sequel if response was strong enough. But we weren't buying it.

Looking back at it now, I think your right than Nemesis was doomed to failure pretty much from the word go. I also remember the discussion particularly here on this board back in 2001 and 2002 and the truth is most of the fandom had become seriously frustrated with the state of the franchise under Berman and the Paramount Executives at that time. There were active calls within the fandom for the franchise to take a hiatus and I think even if Nemesis had been a good movie, it still would have failed financially. The fans were angry and by this point Trek had moved out of the mainstream where it had been in the early to mid-90s.

They kept advertising it as "A Generation's Final Journey Begins".

The undertaking that I remember at the time was that most of us anticipated this would be the last time the entire crew were seen together. Patrick Stewart's paycheque was getting too rich for Paramount (as he was on the up-and-up with the X-Men franchise at the time), so even in the event of a sequel there was a kind of expectation that it wouldn't be the entire TNG cast, just whatever they could stretch their money towards. Splitting the crew up at the end of NEM still makes this viable, as you might only need to re-employ Stewart, Dorn and Burton, and maybe McFadden if the deleted scene of her departure to Starfleet Medical was nullified in this hypothetical sequel. Spiner had written himself out, and they weren't obligated to include Frakes or Sirtis anymore, given that they too had been written off.

Chances are they may have been willing to match Stewart's paycheque for another movie at the expense of dropping nearly all the other regular cast. Whether there was an appetite for that is another matter.

While I'm sure Stewart made a pretty penny, according to Trekmovie.com, the cast actually took pay cuts to get the film made. Although Stewart was also a Producer on Nemesis which means he would have gotten a double paycheque. http://trekmovie.com/2012/12/13/remember-star-trek-nemesis-10-years-later/

I remember at the time there were questions about how many of the cast would actually return if there was another movie. Obviously Brent Spiner wanted out, although B4 was there in case he changed his mind, there were rumors Stewart wasn't keen on doing another one at that time, and I also remember rumors before the movie went into production that Gates McFadden almost didn't do Nemesis because she had been unhappy with Crushers tiny roles in the previous films (ironically most of Crusher's scenes in Nemesis were cut).

 

[CRM-114]

Good grief; that sounds like a total fanwank mess. Assuming that each ship had at least 7 primary crew members, that's almost 30 people to keep track of in a two-hour movie. That's insane.

It sounds like a movie I would've enjoyed at the time, but the years would not have been kind to.

 

[TheSubCommander]

That's basically how it was for all the Trek movies, wasn't it?

No. The difference was that Nemesis was written to be a final TNG movie, if it didn't do well.

 

[arch101]

I had hoped they would keep making them as long as they could. Insurrection didn't do very well, and incurred the wrath of the fans. I figured the next one had better be at least as good as First Contact. Then, I read the leaked script months before the film was released. I knew then it was over. I went to see it hoping they had made changes, but the final film turned out to be pretty much on par with that script. As much as I like Stewart, I think he and Spiner's involvement in the writing and producing departments seriously crippled TNG creatively. Only Frakes should have ever been allowed behind the camera (or Burton, if he wanted to).

 

[urbandefault]

I think it was pretty clear that Stewart and Spiner were ready to move on. After the movie underperformed, Stewart was saying that he'd hung up his space suit, pretty much the same for Spiner. Dorn was implying he was sick of the turtle head and the others were showing their age.

It was time to let go of Next Gen.

 

[Lance]

Looking back at it now, I think your right than Nemesis was doomed to failure pretty much from the word go. I also remember the discussion particularly here on this board back in 2001 and 2002 and the truth is most of the fandom had become seriously frustrated with the state of the franchise under Berman and the Paramount Executives at that time. There were active calls within the fandom for the franchise to take a hiatus and I think even if Nemesis had been a good movie, it still would have failed financially. The fans were angry and by this point Trek had moved out of the mainstream where it had been in the early to mid-90s.



While I'm sure Stewart made a pretty penny, according to Trekmovie.com, the cast actually took pay cuts to get the film made. Although Stewart was also a Producer on Nemesis which means he would have gotten a double paycheque. http://trekmovie.com/2012/12/13/remember-star-trek-nemesis-10-years-later/

I remember at the time there were questions about how many of the cast would actually return if there was another movie. Obviously Brent Spiner wanted out, although B4 was there in case he changed his mind, there were rumors Stewart wasn't keen on doing another one at that time, and I also remember rumors before the movie went into production that Gates McFadden almost didn't do Nemesis because she had been unhappy with Crushers tiny roles in the previous films (ironically most of Crusher's scenes in Nemesis were cut).

One of the most disheartening things about watching the contemporary 'electronic press kit' interview materials presented on the DVD is how McFadden talks about how happy she is with her role in the movie, and about how much she can actually recognize the character of Dr Crusher in the story compared to the previous movies where she'd been pretty much a non-entity.... and you can't help thinking, "Yes dear, but even while you're saying this, they're busy leaving your scenes on the cutting room floor."

 

[ialfan]

At the time it was obvious that it was going to be the last or maybe second to last TNG film. I figured there would be another 24th century film within a few years with either VOY cast or a mixture of TNG/DS9/VOY. Clearly I was too optimistic.

 

[Lance]

At the time it was obvious that it was going to be the last or maybe second to last TNG film. I figured there would be another 24th century film within a few years with either VOY cast or a mixture of TNG/DS9/VOY. Clearly I was too optimistic.

If I recall correctly there was talk of Rick Berman preparing something to that effect, but when it became obvious how badly Nemesis was doing, Paramount took the view that the franchise needed a rest from movie theaters for a while.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I used to believe that Jonathan Frakes' directing Nemesis would've significantly changed the content of the movie, but that would not have happened. He would've gone with what was happening on the creative side, but he would've shot it differently, I do know that.

The film would've looked a lot better, the photography would've flattered the cast very much better than what it did. But the Stewart/Spiner/Logan combination would've remained in full effect. With that it mind, the movie still wouldn't have fared well and the last thing Frakes would've needed was a turkey on his résumé of that Order of Magnitude. ... Nemesis was doomed by destiny.

 

[Aldo]

The biggest thing that hurt the script, was the clause in Logan's contract where he couldn't be rewritten. The plot as a whole isn't a horrible idea, it just needed one or two passes to fix a lot of glaring mistakes.

Leading up to Nemesis, I can remember a certain sense of anticipation on my part. I remember reading a lot of articles on the film talking about how it would deal with Romulan politics. To me that immediately made me thing of Star Trek VI and I got really excited. Plus we were finally going to get Romulans in the film series. Even the look of the film (from the photos, not the trailer) looked interesting to me. I had some trepidation though, as it did look really washed out in greens, and didn't look like a big budget film.

As for "A Generation's Final Journey Begins..." tagline, I always took that to mean they were setting up a new trilogy of some sorts. Had Nemesis been successful, I would think there would be some way to put the crew back together for more adventures.

 

[timtonruben359]

One of the most disheartening things about watching the contemporary 'electronic press kit' interview materials presented on the DVD is how McFadden talks about how happy she is with her role in the movie, and about how much she can actually recognize the character of Dr Crusher in the story compared to the previous movies where she'd been pretty much a non-entity.... and you can't help thinking, "Yes dear, but even while you're saying this, they're busy leaving your scenes on the cutting room floor."

Sadly most of the character moments that might have made Nemesis at least slightly tolerable were cut. If you watch the cut scenes its clear that the Crusher/Picard dynamic was being somewhat revisited. There was a scene in Picard's quarters where he hugs Beverly and gives her a kiss on the cheek, and at the end of the movie Beverly (at Starfleet Medical) seems to imply there might be more going on between them.