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For such a dark plot, TUC feels strangely lighthearted.

The Rock

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
The plot of the movie is a dark one, what with it being about a conspiracy designed to stop peace between two major powers of the galaxy and even having a dark theatrical score.

But yet, despite all that, there are so many quips and humorous parts that it seems (to me at least) just as lighthearted as it is dark. Even when Kirk and Bones are serving their sentence in Rura Penthe they both seem to be taking it in stride and don't really seem all that sad about their situation.

IMO the movie is just as funny as TVH even though TVH is meant to be a comedy while TUC is meant to be a political thriller/drama.

What is your opinion of TUC in this regard? Does it seem like a funny/lighthearted movie to you despite its dark plot?
 
I think considering that STIV was the most successful of the movies at the box office, the studio wanted to be sure that there was comedy in the film. And the comedy in VI certainly works better than it did in V.

But honestly, Kirk and the others bantering, even during a serious situation, is just in their character. Even Spock has a dry wit about him. Here's Kirk and Spock bantering in "Errand of Mercy," when they're trying to free the planet Organia from the Klingons:
KIRK: Mister Spock, can we get those two guards? What would you say the odds on our getting out of here?
SPOCK: Difficult to be precise, Captain. I should say approximately 7,824.7 to 1.
KIRK: Difficult to be precise? 7,824 to 1?
SPOCK: 7,824.7 to 1.
KIRK: That's a pretty close approximation.
SPOCK: I endeavor to be accurate.
And later in the same episode:
KIRK: Well, what are the odds now?
SPOCK: Less than seven thousand to one, Captain. It's remarkable we've got this far.
KIRK: Less than seven thousand to one. Well, getting better. Getting better.
Here's Kirk and Spock in "Patterns of Force," where Spock is standing on Kirk's injured back so they can escape from their cell:
SPOCK: Yes. To reach that light, I shall require some sort of platform.
KIRK: I would be honored, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Now, the rubindium crystals should find enough power here to achieve the necessary stimulus. As I recall from the history of physics, the ancient lasers were able to achieve the necessary excitation, even using crude natural crystals.
KIRK: Oh, Mister Spock, the guard did a professional job on my back. I'd appreciate it if you'd hurry.
SPOCK: Yes, of course, Captain. You realise that the aim will of course be very crude.
KIRK: (in pain) I don't care if you hit the broad side of a barn. Just hurry, please.
SPOCK: Captain, why should I aim at such a structure?
KIRK: Never mind, Spock. Just get on with the job.
Here's Kirk and McCoy in "Mirror, Mirror," where Kirk has just barely escaped getting assassinated by Chekov:
MCCOY: Here. Here. What's this?
KIRK: It's called blood. Watch your step. The officers move up by assassination. Chekov tried it on me.
Here's McCoy and Spock in TMP, when a hostile intruder is only days away from Earth:
McCOY: Spock, you haven't changed a bit. You're just as warm and sociable as ever.
SPOCK: Nor have you, Doctor, as your continued predilection for irrelevancy demonstrates.
I'm sure there are tons of other examples.

So yes, TUC has some dark and serious themes, but it's still a good time at the movies. A film can do both things.
 
Moments like the one from TMP were the most warmly received by audiences, so an ongoing decision was made to include more and more such moments as the films continued. In TFF they just got out of hand and contrived, though there were some good ones (see KS&M in the brig).
 
Also keep in mind that Nicholas Meyer, who directed and co-wrote TUC, was also an uncredited writer on TWOK and split the writing duties for TVH with Harve Bennett (Meyer wrote the middle section, when they're in the 20th century), so witty banter and literary references are par for the course.

I always liked this exchange between Kirk and Bones right before they beam down to the Regula planetoid:

McCoy: Where are we going?
Kirk: Where they went.
McCoy: And what if they went nowhere?
Kirk: Well, then this will be your big chance to get away from it all.
 
Also keep in mind that Nicholas Meyer, who directed and co-wrote TUC, was also an uncredited writer on TWOK and split the writing duties for TVH with Harve Bennett (Meyer wrote the middle section, when they're in the 20th century), so witty banter and literary references are par for the course.

I always liked this exchange between Kirk and Bones right before they beam down to the Regula planetoid:

McCoy: Where are we going?
Kirk: Where they went.
McCoy: And what if they went nowhere?
Kirk: Well, then this will be your big chance to get away from it all.​
I've always liked Spock's "Jim... Be careful," followed by McCoy responding "WE will!" and Spock's raised eyebrow. Perfect. The essence of Spock & McCoy in just five words.
 
I don’t find TUC to be particularly funny. There’s some light moments, and I definitely crack a smile in those moments, but that’s about it.
 
I think Rura Penthe has some pretty funny moments, like Kirk making out with Martia while Bones gets annoyed, Kirk fighting Kirk-Martia and rolling over Bones, testicle knees guy, and even when they get they beamed off the planet at the end whinging that they almost got the bad guys name. I was always indifferent to the book scene as a kid but I kinda think now it's a bit crap for what it says about Uhura. I think the humour could have just come out of a bad impersonation of Klingons rather than these guys are idiots, as I always laughed at Uhura, Scotty and Chekov's forced laughter.
 
I have always viewed the book scene as Uhura's Klingon was way rusty and she needed the books to make sure she didn't screw up, and of course, because she was using the books, of course she screwed up. I did that enough times in school it rang true.
 
I have always viewed the book scene as Uhura's Klingon was way rusty and she needed the books to make sure she didn't screw up, and of course, because she was using the books, of course she screwed up. I did that enough times in school it rang true.
I just rationalize it now as Uhura was rusty on the one Klingon dialect she wasn't too familiar with. The guards at that station were speaking in a weird archaic way, so that probably played into it as well.
 
The plot of the movie is a dark one, what with it being about a conspiracy designed to stop peace between two major powers of the galaxy and even having a dark theatrical score.

But yet, despite all that, there are so many quips and humorous parts that it seems (to me at least) just as lighthearted as it is dark. Even when Kirk and Bones are serving their sentence in Rura Penthe they both seem to be taking it in stride and don't really seem all that sad about their situation.

IMO the movie is just as funny as TVH even though TVH is meant to be a comedy while TUC is meant to be a political thriller/drama.

What is your opinion of TUC in this regard? Does it seem like a funny/lighthearted movie to you despite its dark plot?

In 1991, I loathed it. TNG was doing all the "serious" stuff and the TOS movies became sitcommy. TVH started the trend, and it worked only because they had "fish out of water" making it feel authentic. TFF and TUC both try the same thing but making jokes of the characters' fields. Sulu and Chekov get lost and have to cover. Uhura is the Communications/Linguistics officer and can't read a book and Scotty and the other three or whocares number of officers surrounding Uhura weren't being of any help either, and since when was the ship loaded with specialists in not just their fields but could all be C3P0-Stand-ins with language translating at the same time? Ugh...

True, the movie did need some humor - though considering I could sit through "Nemesis"'s dark tone (sans one or two scenes) and was appreciative they finally ditched the jokiness that increasingly developed, especially for Data... (the 1990s in general weren't my favorite for movies as Bond was devolving into superficial drivel as well, but YMMV.)

At the same time, Chekov's epic of "Cinderella" still gave a chuckle, though his character was introduced in 1967 as a "backhanded compliment" trope anyway, but before I digress and especially how I think his more serious handling in season 3 of TOS was a genuine plus... that's the only joke I laughed at. That and McCoy's coffee line. Regardless of film entry, McCoy is generally consistently the best. Even TFF, which is a mixed bag for all the characters (even Kirk is the butt of a joke on one or two occasions, but ideally none of them would have been. And McCoy was the only one truly spared the character assassination scenes.)

Dang digressing...

Great point on Kirk and Bones not being as petrified as all that. Spock slapping the Veridian 3 patch onto his shoulder is also a headscratcher since he gets to keep his uniform, which must've smelled real bad by the time his 5 o'clock shadow became that prominent as well. (the humor between him and Bones DID feel authentic; the movie did get some scenes perfectly...)

On the flip side, what if TVH didn't have the whaling songs and kneeslap comedy but instead focused on the political intrigue*? The court scenes, which sprinkle some seeds that TUC take needed advantage of, are just as sample of what could have been. The makers wanted a lighter movie, after the grim material from the previous two movies, but they clearly were onto something with the political intrigue. Indeed, who says "YOU POMPOUS ***!" falls right in line with TUC. is it possible that ideas for TUC were originally slated for the whalefest but sidelined? And not just the death of Kirk's son as well. Ironically, it may have been for the best that TVH and TFF both did their own things, with TVH seeding an idea and TFF mucking it up**. Could TUC's darker dealings have worked as well in 1986?

* TFF didn't know what it wanted to do either, and there is some good material cut out that would have helped a lot... but the studio wanted the comedy and that's one of the core reasons behind its flopping... IMHO...

** The ending of TFF shows Klingons and Federation personnel at what looks like a newfound peace, making TUC and Kirk's barking mad line about "LET THEM DIE!!"" a real headscratcher. It's up to headcanon to plop in some event between films that had Kirk devolving, instead of him acting as if this all was a direct continuation after III. As fathomed earlier, TUC feels as if more of its ideas were intended for 1986 but sidelined, for whatever reason(s). Maybe it was for the best...?

And while it's true TNG came about due to actor salaries, it's also true that TVH brought in a truckload of new fans. That wouldn't have hurt, either, but how many of them would vamoose if they came in, saw this TVH as being a comedy, and expected every movie thereafter to feel like an overly long sitcom, complete with music yet lacking that luster of 29.97fps videotape? And, as we all know, Kirk put the "lust" in "luster" :razz:... :shifty:

:guffaw:

But I digress. Again. But etymology is a beautiful thing...


I have always viewed the book scene as Uhura's Klingon was way rusty and she needed the books to make sure she didn't screw up, and of course, because she was using the books, of course she screwed up. I did that enough times in school it rang true.

I just scrolled up, rare but true. I think you raise a great point, but did the scene still need to be camped up as such? At least she, upon closing the channel, gives a worthy scowl. That almost made up for it...
 
The banter works for me because the characters are more than old friends by this point. But the forced humor i.e. "gags" always brings the film down a few notches to me. The meta joke about Kirk his double being his "lifelong ambition" was about Shatner's ego and it's obviously slapped in; Shatner's facial tics are on full display here and the scene goes from serious to a joke to right back to serious. There's a lot of dialog ADR that seems to be there to fill space, especially the dialog on the bridge as they approach Khitomer and you never see the actors speaking, just their voices. McCoy's constant - I mean CONSTANT - wisecracks during the torpedo scene are just like wallpaper (but the "real money" line is great). And making this film less serious and more cheesy (other than Chekov being really stupid throughout) is the over the top direction Meyer gave to his background actors. He crowds every scene with them and has them over emote at every turn.

The crewman Dax scene is the nadir of the film. That entire bit is misguided. Spock allows a crowd of people to ambush him so Chekov can deliver his smug proclamation and at no time did anyone check the guy's records to see what he species was? None of his roommates spoke up? "Hey Dax can't wear shoes?" All for a dud joke.

This is my main issue with this film. Nobody had confidence in the cast to deliver a truly dark, suspenseful and serous Star Trek movie at that point. The jokes in the press about the cast's age and weight were overwhelming (it would never fly today). I know, most fans consider this the second best film in the series and love Nicky Meyer, but he was smoking his own publicity at this point. It's such a lovely looking movie and the main cast does great work, but it's overbaked in some ways and rushed in most others.

And yet... I still like it more than The Voyage Home. And, to be clear, I don't dislike a single Star Trek movie. Out of 5 stars, I give this a 3. There are so many GREAT things in this film.

The score is nice and serious. The casting is spot on. The story is fantastic and even though the reuse of sets is sometimes very obvious, it still looks good. The final battle is gripping and the Kirk's "fire" and Sulu joining in is a fist in the air moment. Spock's final "if I were human" crack brings down the house, a line so good they had Data do one just like it in First Contact and it tanked. Nimoy SHINES in this movie and Spock's growth over the years is rewarding to see. You can hear a lot of Sarek in his words. When he slaps the phaser out of Valeris' hand, you get chills. Shatner's "let them die" is chilling and his performance is spot on. It's nice to see Shatner and Kelley getting a lot of scenes together, Takei is a natural in the command chair and even Doohan gets some solid work in. Only Koenig and Nichelle are shortchanged and that's because of the bullshit they're given to play.

The theatrical version is always my go-to, I hate the added scenes in the DC.
 
Only Koenig and Nichelle are shortchanged and that's because of the bullshit they're given to play.
I'm betting if Nichelle Nichols hadn't refused to say the "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" line, it'd be remembered a lot more today. Meyer was absolutely right that it would've had more bite coming from Uhura.

Honestly, I'm surprised that considering how offensive Nichols found the line, she was even willing to appear in the background of the shot where Koenig says it.

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There was also a line she reused to say, something like "but would you want your daughter to marry one?"

Honesty don't blame her for that either. I don't think it needed to be laid on that thick.
 
I know Nichelle also wasn't happy about the part where they have to go poring through books to speak in Klingon - and then she does a lousy job of actually speaking it - but I actually think it works better that way (rather than the original version in which Valeris erases all records of the Klingon language from the UT).

They're not just pretending to be smugglers, they're pretending to be incompetent, amateurish smugglers. So the worse their grasp of Klingon is, the better. That means they don't pose a threat. That's why the Klingons let them through.

Remember the guard saying "Don't catch any bugs"? That's smuggler lingo for "don't get caught". And his tone clearly implies that these suckers WILL get caught...
 
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I know Nichelle also wasn't happy about the part where they have to go poring through books to speak in Klingon - and then she does a lousy job of actually speaking it - but I actually think it works better that way (rather than the original version in which Valeris erases all records of the Klingon language from the UT).
I don't think that was in the original script. I believe that was just something that J.M. Dillard added in her novelization. She pretty obviously didn't like the script for STVI and was undercutting it/"explaining" stuff like that at every opportunity.
 
I don't have any objections to Uhura not knowing Klingon. She wasn't played up as any type of linguistic genius at that point. It makes total sense that the universal translator would be recognized so she would need to look it up.

Fine.

But the execution undermines her character, because she can't do it herself. She needs practically the entire bridge crew (and Scotty) to go through multiple volumes of Klingon dictionaries which happened to have been stored where machinery should be. But because they were going for laughs, they needed a dozen extras, Chekov mouthing as the Klingons are laughing like he doesn't know what they're doing and needing that nameless, no line extra to grotesquely pantomime laughter so they all "get it." And then everybody does this ridiculous ho-ho-ho laughter instead of doing a convincing laugh that suddenly stops as soon as she hit the button.

That's my problem with the humor in the last two TOS movies. It's mostly obvious, overdone and at the expense of the characters. There are plenty of ways to make the audience laugh about these types of gags.

But I'm complaining about a 30 year old movie, so who really cares?
 
I don't think that was in the original script. I believe that was just something that J.M. Dillard added in her novelization. She pretty obviously didn't like the script for STVI and was undercutting it/"explaining" stuff like that at every opportunity.

Huh. I always thought it was the original idea. Partly because when Chekov says "We must respond personally. The Universal Translator would be recognized." it sounds very much overdubbed at the last minute.

Oh well. I still stand by my position. They had to pretend to be as ignorant and sloppy as possible so the Klingons wouldn't consider them a threat and so would let them through. If they sound too authentic, they'd be stopped at the border, possibly even fired upon.
 
Ironically, it may have been for the best that TVH and TFF both did their own things, with TVH seeding an idea and TFF mucking it up**.
** The ending of TFF shows Klingons and Federation personnel at what looks like a newfound peace, making TUC and Kirk's barking mad line about "LET THEM DIE!!"" a real headscratcher. It's up to headcanon to plop in some event between films that had Kirk devolving, instead of him acting as if this all was a direct continuation after III. As fathomed earlier, TUC feels as if more of its ideas were intended for 1986 but sidelined, for whatever reason(s). Maybe it was for the best...?
Well, the Klingons in TVH came right out and said, "There will be no peace between us as long as Kirk lives." (And boy howdy, I remember what some of the fan magazines made of that line and what they predicted for future movies.)

Even if Kirk and co. got chummy with a few Klingons on one ship, on one occasion, it doesn't take much headcanon or retcon to say that attitude wasn't gone. On either side. The Klingons, as a group, were still gunning for Kirk. Kirk would know that and consequently still had prejudice against Klingons, as a group.
 
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