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"For fanboys only"

langdonboom

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
I've heard the criticism of a certain book being "fanboyish" or "just for fanboys" a few times applied in different places, and to a few books that I actually really enjoyed (most recently, Before Dishonor). So I wonder if someone can explain exactly what they mean when they say a book is "for fanboys only".

I mean, we're all reading books based on TV shows, featuring characters that someone other than the book's author created for television, and then coming onto the internet to discuss them in a Trek web forum -- what else are we but "fanboys"??? And what is the alternative for books based on previously existing TV shows to be, examples of high literature? I mean, I think the authors of my favorite Trek books are very talented and extremely intelligent, and often subtly emotionally insightful writers, but at the end of the day, isn't this just the pulpiest of fiction as compared to say, Henry James, Dostoevsky, Proust, or even Hemmingway or Dick? This isn't a knock on Trek or other TV-property books, clearly I love them, but I didn't think anybody read ST books for anything other than sheer pleasure, so this distinction between "for fanboys" or not for "fanboys" only has always kind of confused me.

So what in everybody's opinions is the line between these so-called "fanboy" books and not-just-for-fanboys books? Examples are appreciated.
 
I didn't think anybody read ST books for anything other than sheer pleasure, so this distinction between "for fanboys" or not for "fanboys" only has always kind of confused me.

I guess it's one fan's (or a group of fans') way of being snobby and attempting to insult another fan's (or a group of fans') taste in tie-in literature.

The term get applied to ST stories, novels and comics with what some readers perceive as too many in-jokes, too many references to previous episodes or movies, too many characters from across the ST tapestry shoehorned into the one adventure, too many ST battles, too many hand phaser fights, too many alien love conquests by the captain, too many Tuckerisms (references to friends' names as characters or places), a very, very obvious Mary Sue character, and so on.

Call me a fanboy, but I enjoyed "Before Dishonor", "Q-in-Law", the "Khan Noonien Singh" trilogy, "Prime Directive", "Dreadnought!", "Battlestations!", "Double: Helix: Red Sector" and "Uhura's Song" very much, all of which I've seen branded as "too fanboyish" for various reasons.
 
I think the only difference between a "fan" and a "fanboy" is that people have arbitrarily decided to sneer at the latter and find the former okay. The word "fanboy" annoys me to be honest.
 
I didn't think anybody read ST books for anything other than sheer pleasure, so this distinction between "for fanboys" or not for "fanboys" only has always kind of confused me.

I guess it's one fan's (or a group of fans') way of being snobby and attempting to insult another fan's (or a group of fans') taste in tie-in literature.

The term get applied to ST stories, novels and comics with what some readers perceive as too many in-jokes, too many references to previous episodes or movies, too many characters from across the ST tapestry shoehorned into the one adventure, too many ST battles, too many hand phaser fights, too many alien love conquests by the captain, too many Tuckerisms (references to friends' names as characters or places), a very, very obvious Mary Sue character, and so on.

Call me a fanboy, but I enjoyed "Before Dishonor", "Q-in-Law", the "Khan Noonien Singh" trilogy, "Prime Directive", "Dreadnought!", "Battlestations!", "Double: Helix: Red Sector" and "Uhura's Song" very much, all of which I've seen branded as "too fanboyish" for various reasons.

Wow, okay, thanks Therin! I must be a huge fanboy then since I love most of that stuff -- namely the interweaving of the huge tapestry that is ST's history and continuity. For me that's one of ST's most enjoyable strengths -- the variety and breadth of worlds and characters that have been established. Seeing various worlds and characters overlap is one of my great joys! Phaser fights, alien captiain love interests - not as much per se, and I'm new to the term "Tuckerisms" but I know what you mean. I just love the very fact of having 40 years of storytelling to weave in and out of, as well as the newer kind of storytelling in a series such as Titan which I have come to love (though having Tuvok build a relatoinship with good old Riker and Troi is a great treat even there!)

Also this makes me thing of another series of ST books I've been loving lately -- the Myriad Universes stuff. Seems to me that kind of world-overlap and relying upon the knowledge of the televised history of Trek is exactly what they're built on.

Thanks for the explanation, I figured it had to be some kind of personal taste thing disguised as unassailable fact (seems to happen on the internet!), but the details help. And now I'm gonna check out the novels you mentioned that I haven't gotten to, so thanks again!
 
Call me a fanboy, but I enjoyed "Before Dishonor", "Q-in-Law", the "Khan Noonien Singh" trilogy, "Prime Directive", "Dreadnought!", "Battlestations!", "Double: Helix: Red Sector" and "Uhura's Song" very much, all of which I've seen branded as "too fanboyish" for various reasons.
I have a multitude of reasons for hating Red Sector, but they all have to do with it being a bad book, and none of them to do with being "too fanboyish." I can't think of anything "fannish" in Red Sector. I can think of shoddy characterization, nonsensical plotting (Data fighting Romulan ninjas? Really?), ham-handed political diatribes, and general stupidity as reasons for hating Red Sector. Tim Lynch's review of the book said, quite accurately, that it "actively causes brain damage." Fanboyishness might have been an improvement.

In truth, Ian, I don't understand your definition by example, as I can think of nothing "fanboyish" about any of the books you've named. The context that "for fanboys only" was used in the other thread was, as I understood it, in terms of excessive continuity. Some call it fanwank. Some call it continuity porn. Yet some of the books you've named, Ian, are incredibly light touches on continuity. Anyone can read Uhura's Song and not be lost. Anyone can read Dreadnought! I don't see these as "fannish" books, because they're not.
 
The context that "for fanboys only" was used in the other thread was, as I understood it, in terms of excessive continuity. Some call it fanwank. Some call it continuity porn.

Ah, thank you for this. I love the term "continuity porn"! Yes, I must admit, I like continuity porn (perhaps its best for when I want to fanwank! ;) ), which I take to mean the simple pleasure of seeing X meet Y from disparate episodes or shows, apart from a gripping story or character development, etc. Don't really see the pejorative aspect of this at all, myself. Of course I only like "well written continuity porn" - for example I enjoyed seeing Mr. Spock, Seven of Nine, and the Planet Killer go up against the new Borg threat in Before Dishonor, or as in another of my favorite TNG novels, Immortal Coil, seeing the interactions of M5 and other AIs from various Treks and Data.... Or as in the Myriad Universes story seeing the alternate Bashir have to contend with a Botany Bay filled with Rain Robinson, Janeway's ancestor, etc, and in Greater Than the Sum, picking up with the Liberated/Hugh-group of Borg after so much other Borg mythology had come and gone, and a new Borg threat was imminent. I could go on but I cannot really think of a Trek book (not that I've read nearly as many as some here on these boards) that had referenced Trek history/continuity in what seemed like anything other than an enjoyable way.

Can you give me any examples of books you thought were too "fannish" (though to my thinking really, anybody reading a ST book has to be a serious fan, doesn't he)? If anything, I personally have found it more difficult to get into any Trek book that DOESN'T pick up from established characters (though from recently reading about it on this board, I hear New Frontiers and SCE could be worth investigating... I suppose "Starfleet" and its universe is enough establishment for me to hang onto, right?)

I must say I do quite enjoy when a Trek seems to be reading the mind of a reader who's possibly seen a situation like the one being written about before, and who might be ask themselves, "I wonder what so-and-so would do in this situation?" and then actually shows us that. For me it really makes for such an enjoyably rich, involving fantasy experience.
 
The reason someone would be right to call Before Dishonor fanboyish is because it features the Borg, they assimilate whole worlds and there's a lot of pedantic space battles.

This is coming from me, who read Vendetta,Imzadi and Q Squared each twice.
 
I've always understood the term For Fanboys Only to mean that the only people who can really understand the story are people who know every little detail of every episode of the series the books are based on. Personally, I don't think I've ever come across this with Trek, but at times it seems like some of the Star Wars books get a little close to that.
 
I can't think of anything "fannish" in Red Sector.

Well pardon me for even attempting to answer the OP's question. :confused:

I seem to recall people complaining bitterly about yet another trotting out of elderly McCoy, another Spock/McCoy team-up, and the young Styles being a close buddy of a Romulan too ironic, re its harkening back to his descendants' intense antagonism about Romulans.

In truth, Ian, I don't understand your definition by example, as I can think of nothing "fanboyish" about any of the books you've named.

Tough.

I wasn't attempting to write it for you.

The context that "for fanboys only" was used in the other thread was, as I understood it, in terms of excessive continuity. Some call it fanwank. Some call it continuity porn. Yet some of the books you've named, Ian, are incredibly light touches on continuity. Anyone can read Uhura's Song and not be lost.

I seem to recall, only recently, people saying it was unreadable due to the Mary Sue character of Evan. Even though I don't agree that "Uhura's Song" is fanboyish, Mary Sues are "fangirlish", aren't they? And I recall someone else saying they hated any books where Uhura uses her musical abilities.

Anyone can read Dreadnought! I don't see these as "fannish" books, because they're not.

I didn't say it was "fannish". I listed it as a book I know that others have claimed was "fannish".

Of course anyone can read "Dreadnought!" But I know a lot of people who call it a "professional fanzine story", and dismiss Piper as a Mary Sue, and hate that it was written in the first person, and that Carey created her own command/Vulcan/doctor triumvirate to reflect against the "big three of TOS".

"Excessive continuity" is just one meaning of "too fanboyish", yes?

I offered others. You are free to disagree, but the testiness of your replies to me, of late, is... strange. Call me paranoid but I do not deliberately set out to annoy you; I'm sorry you seem so quick to take umbrage.
 
You are free to disagree, but the testiness of your replies to me, of late, is... strange. Call me paranoid but I do not deliberately set out to annoy you; I'm sorry you seem so quick to take umbrage.
I wasn't annoyed with you. I was puzzled by why you would list the books that you did as being characterized as suffering from "excessive fanboyishness." I think, perhaps, we've hit a definitional wall; I seem to define "for fanboys only" much more narrowly (strictly along the lines of "continuity porn," already mentioned above) than you.

Take, for instance, Dreadnought! or Uhura's Song. Both have been mentioned recently as "Mary Sue" books (Uhura's Song in this thread, Dreadnought! over in the Art forum), and I've never, in over twenty years, seen either as such. I think it's easier to argue that Killing Time is a K/S novel (because it is) than to make a convincing argument that Dreadnought! or Uhura's Song is a "Mary Sue" novel. Dreadnought! has an unconventional (for Star Trek, that is) narrator, and both books feature an unknown character in a prominent role. This is a creative advantage; the unknown character helps to provide a new perspective on our favorite heroes.

I'm sorry you're feeling a bit paranoid, but I can assure you that I'm not inclined toward persecution.
 
I seem to recall, only recently, people saying it was unreadable due to the Mary Sue character of Evan. Even though I don't agree that "Uhura's Song" is fanboyish, Mary Sues are "fangirlish", aren't they? And I recall someone else saying they hated any books where Uhura uses her musical abilities.
I would argue that "fanboyish" and "fangirlish" are very different things.
 
The reason someone would be right to call Before Dishonor fanboyish is because it features the Borg, they assimilate whole worlds and there's a lot of pedantic space battles.

This is coming from me, who read Vendetta,Imzadi and Q Squared each twice.

Hmm, so has the Destiny Trilogy met with any cries of "fanboy"?

I see what you mean about copious space battles (even though I enjoyed the whole planet-killer vs. mega-cube scenario), but I think that the issue with Borg assimilating worlds thing is that after being introduced as an unstoppable foe, and then being beaten so many times, just narratively their size and scope as bad guys just had to keep ratcheting up to keep them imposing until it got to the insane size they assumed in this and the Destiny series.... which is actually why I was glad for Destiny, there really did seem to be nowhere else to go! But man, I really loved seeing them get there!
 
You realize that Allyn just agreed with you by saying that none of those were fannish, right?

Usually when someone agrees with me I don't feel... disappointed.

I would argue that "fanboyish" and "fangirlish" are very different things.

And yet we aren't supposed to use sexist terms these days. "Young fanpersonish" will never catch on.

The old, stereotypical gender split for fans and fanzines used to be that males tended to like tech themes (and SPFX in the shows) while females tended to prefer relationships, but I'm not sure that truly described the actual situation.

I was puzzled by why you would list the books that you did as being characterized as suffering from "excessive fanboyishness."

They were books that I have heard people deriding as "too fannish" over the years, and have had to defend because I liked them. It was not a list of books that I categorized as having "excessive fanboyishness."

This is a creative advantage; the unknown character helps to provide a new perspective on our favorite heroes.

My sentiments exactly. I wasn't dissing "Dreadnought!", "Battlestations!" or "Uhura's Song", and I thought my post said that clearly - but those books are often held up as ST books that were "too fannish". Not by me, but we were asked for examples.

My previous quote:
all of which I've seen branded as "too fanboyish" for various reasons.
I've seen "Before Dishonor" dissed for the way the admirals made jokes as the universe seemed doomed, and for the author killing off a major female character (either to piss off as many females as possible, or because he had famously discussed hating VOY years earlier), "Q-in-Law" for being too funny or self-indulgent (surely, a fanboyish trait?), the "Khan Noonien Singh" trilogy for having way too many cameos by canonical characters, "Prime Directive" for various reasons (and it also has the famous Roddenberry disclaimer in it, so supposedly GR and Richard Arnold didn't like it either), "Dreadnought!", "Battlestations!" and "Uhura's Song" for having an obvious Mary Sue-type character, and "Red Sector" for yet another TNG McCoy and Spock appearance and a Styles descendant who likes Romulans.

These are not my beliefs, but the OP was asking for "opinions" re "the line between these so-called 'fanboy' books and not-just-for-fanboys books? Examples are appreciated", which is what I attempted to do. I left out many others: "How Much for Just the Planet?" comes into much criticism for its attempts at slapstick humour, and everyone in it breaking into song. But its probably one of the best times I had reading a ST novel.

I don't think any ST novels have been "too fanboyish" for my tastes. My least favourite ST books aren't fanboyish, they're just turgid: "Warped", "The Laertian Gamble", "Into the Nebula", "The Final Nexus".
 
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When I consider my own understanding of what is meant here by fiction that is fanboy-ish, I think of some of the earlier Doctor Who novels, and more recently the DC Star Trek Volume 1 comic series.

The first Doctor Who book I read was about one of my favorite villains from the show, and it had a lot of references to TV stories which had featured this particular race, and the references I only understood from fact checking DW reference material. I enjoyed it well enough when I read it, but subsequent exposure to the original TV adventures revealed to me how saturated the book was with details from those stories. The second DW book I read clicked with me because I owned and had watched the TV adventure it extrapolated from, and had luckily enough read exactly the right novelizations of the other stories that were referenced in the new story. The thing is, there are decades of story details in DW's long history, and it's taken years to accumulate all the details.

With the Star Trek DC Volume 1 series, I was lucky again to have invested a renewed interest in the old series around the time of it's anniversary. The season box sets dropped in price, so I went for them, and rediscovered the old show. I watched through all the greats that I knew and loved, then watched through the acclaimed ones that I wasn't as familiar with. Then I got to the ones I remembered liking as a kid, but had become wary of because of their reputation. Eventually, I watched through the remaining ones as well. I had a great time with it. Later on, I came across mention of the Star Trek comics CD on this forum, and felt that was a great opportunity.

I've read about some of the opinions and writing restrictions on the early Star Trek comics, and the letters column of ST DC Vol. 1 indicated a lot of enthusiasm for being able to develop characters and stories from the original series, which was prohibited prior to the start of this series. Most of the letters are full of excitment for seeing the reintroduction of characters and situations from episode of the TV series, but I did come across one dissenting voice who complained that there was a bit of overkill going on. I've gone through the first eight issues so far, and I can see what he means. The Klingons, Excalbians and the Organians are all mixed into the first four-part story. Then issue six has a character from "A Taste of Armageddon" and another character who exhibits abilites that are explicitly tied to the origin of Garth's abilities from "Whom Gods Destroy". Then the two-part adventure focusing on Savaak deals with Pon Farr, features a character called Xon (I suspect the writers named him that after the vulcan character who was intended to replace Spock during the development of ST Phase II/ST:The Motion Picture), and also dealt with a secret Romulan mission to exploit a discovery made by Kirk and company about the Great Barrier at the edge of the galaxy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before". That's a lot of elements to cannibalize from episodes to mix into new combinations, and admittedly the stories were original enough. But with issues six, seven and eight, I began to wonder about the heavy reliance on continuity. If I had tried to follow the series when it was actually coming out (I was very young at that point) I would have had a great deal of difficulty.

I'm not sure if there is any point I am trying to make in particular. When I consider ST novels, I know there came a point in time where I found the prospect of following them daunting. The danger signs where there when they started coming out with interlocking series, Invasion wasn't too big a deal, but I felt dispair at the sight of the Double Helix books, with characters from the different shows appearing with each other on each of the covers, and then the Gateway series...I just didn't know what to make of it. I stopped following DS9 at a certain point, and Voyager as well. I felt like there was an oversaturation of ST, and then eventually I came to realize that I felt left behind. I wouldn't be able to get into the books for those shows, and the interlocking stories seemed problematic. Crossovers are fun, but only in small doses. ST fiction seemed to get to a point where there appeared to be so much crossover between series. I seem to recall there was even a novel called crossover. That was the point I felt where ST fiction started to take away from the idea of the TNG crew as being their own generation, without the shadow of the old crew. The movie ST: Generations didn't help the situation, creating a situation where the audience is expected to believe that the new crew (not that new by that point) required intervention from a member of the old crew in order to win the day. I hated that perceived vibe.

New Frontier seemed interesting, but then I saw that it was joined up with Double Helix and Gateways and the Captains Table, so I stayed away from it for a while. All that being said, I did recently take the plunge and start collecting New Frontier. And I will only read the New Frontier books of DH, GW, and CT (Except that I might give Janeway's Captain's Table book a try, I like the author well enough and the back cover blurb seems interesting enough). I'll be going into those books blind, and hopefully they will be self contained enough to get through without being confused. I don't care about the other segments of DH, GW and CT, because I'm wary of oversaturation.

The idea of the TNG relaunch is something that drew me in, and so I've collected from resistance through to ST Destiny, A Singular Destiny, and Losing the Peace (I'm also throwing in the first book of the Titan series, because Riker and Troi are a part of TNG). I've had to draw a limit for myself, because I haven't even been able to find the time to get started with these books, but I want to reasonable sampling of Post-Nemesis TNG. I've only skipped Death in Winter because I find Michael Jan Friedman books are difficult for me to get through, so hopefully I'll get a good idea for what Picard and Beverly are all about in the subsequent books. I'm just hoping that knowledge of the A Time To... series isn't required, but then, I've heard complaints that they aren't, so I guess I will see.

I kind of feel like the older, numbered series are a safe haven, to a certain extend. Even if they are continuity heavy, they can only be heavy with continuity from the three seasons of the original series. I was lucky again to have had interest in securing TOS novels of interest before the new movie came out, as they've become much more sparsely supplied in used bookstores of late (that's probably no surprise).

What's really exciting is the new books based on the 2009 movie. They are supposed to be user friendly, and targeted for an audience that liked the new movie. I like that there is a certain amount of simplicity in this. We get to go back to that iconic crew, and explore their characters from a new perspective, and we only need to have seen that one movie. And there's no need to be too aware of or remember details of the original crews five year mission, since that's 6-8 years forward from the time of the movie, roughly speaking. I will probably get the four books based on the movie.

The process of writing all of this has helped clarify for me where the fanboyishness, or the perceived level fanboyishness of a novel impacts on my spending habits. I've haven't followed all ST shows, and when you factor in the novels, I guess there is only so much detail my mind can hold.
 
Well, how about if the intent of the story or scene is to make you say "cool!" or "awesome!" then we may have fanboy stuff.

The Destiny trilogy, as someone mentioned, may have Borg, but there was very little 'cool or 'awesome' about it, so it was a better story than PAD's Borg book with huge cubes and Pluto being eaten.
 
Well, how about if the intent of the story or scene is to make you say "cool!" or "awesome!" then we may have fanboy stuff.

The Destiny trilogy, as someone mentioned, may have Borg, but there was very little 'cool or 'awesome' about it, so it was a better story than PAD's Borg book with huge cubes and Pluto being eaten.

Oh there are MANY reasons it was better, let me count the ways..

The fanboy appellation kind of attracts me. I think, at least it might not be stodgy. I'm not sure whose boy Pluto being eaten was but it certainly wasn't the fans.
 
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