Flat Earth

[JirinPanthosa]

The thing about flat earth was, it WAS a perfectly reasonable belief, hundreds of years ago where we didn't have obscene amounts of empirical proof it was spherical.

We are small enough compared to its size that it sure seems flat, if you don't look that hard.

So it's not the idea that it could be flat that's crazy so much as believing that millions and millions of people are part of an organized conspiracy to fabricate the idea it's not. For that many people's sense of reality and ability to trust to be that warped is beyond belief.

 

[Oddish]

There is simple proof that the earth isn't flat: if it was, cats would have pushed everything off the edge by now.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

The thing about flat earth was, it WAS a perfectly reasonable belief, hundreds of years ago where we didn't have obscene amounts of empirical proof it was spherical.

It wasn't even a commonplace or reasonable belief among the educated or churchgoing in Europe back then. That Europeans widely believed the Earth to be flat centuries ago until the "New World" was colonized was an erroneous idea largely popularized by Washington Irving in his myth-filled biography of Christopher Columbus that unfortunately still shapes wrongheaded education and opinions about the man and his (mis)deeds to this day.

Belief in the spherical Earth was documented since at least the time of the ancient Greeks in the 5th century BC. It was commonplace among the educated class when Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC. and continued to be the standard throughout Roman times, the Middle Ages, Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment.

The myth that most educated Europeans believed the Earth to be flat is a relatively recent development from the late-19th / early 20th century popularized by scholars (based in large part on Irving's hugely popular and influential writing) who wanted to sell the narrative that science and religion have always been in bitter conflict with each other (which they often are, but not on everything).

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It wasn't even a commonplace or reasonable belief among the educated or churchgoing in Europe back then. That Europeans widely believed the Earth to be flat centuries ago until the "New World" was colonized was an erroneous idea largely popularized by Washington Irving in his myth-filled biography of Christopher Columbus that unfortunately still shapes wrongheaded education and opinions about the man and his (mis)deeds to this day.

Belief in the spherical Earth was documented since at least the time of the ancient Greeks in the 5th century BC. It was commonplace among the educated class when Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC. and continued to be the standard throughout Roman times, the Middle Ages, Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment.

The myth that most educated Europeans believed the Earth to be flat is a relatively recent development from the late-19th / early 20th century popularized by scholars (based in large part on Irving's hugely popular and influential writing) who wanted to sell the narrative that science and religion have always been in bitter conflict with each other (which they often are, but not on everything).

Operative term there: Educated

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Operative term there: Educated

Doesn't matter, because the educated and the priesthood were the ones who disseminated the information to the public, and among them, belief in a spherical Earth was commonplace, so that's what the public was taught and led to believe. There were outliers of course, but for the most part the spherical Earth was the consensus belief among Europeans. The idea that anyone sending the voyage off (or the lesser educated members of his crew) seriously was concerned that Columbus would sail off the edge of the Earth is a total fabrication.

It's a myth along the lines of the whole idea that the "Dark Ages" (as opposed to the proper term Middle Ages) were a time of virtually no scientific, technical, or social progress.

 

[Oddish]

It wasn't a matter of progress made, but rather progress recently lost. The fall of Rome had set human civilization back by centuries.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

It wasn't a matter of progress made, but rather progress recently lost. The fall of Rome had set human civilization back by centuries.

The Western Empire gradually fell, but the Eastern Empire kept chugging along for another millennium until it was conquered by the Ottomans, so it's not as if their knowledge exchange or trade with Western Europe suddenly disappeared. The void that was created was not so much a lack of knowledge of what came before, but the lack of centralized control from Rome to the provinces. Which indeed caused fragmentation into feudal states and often brutal wars (not that Rome itself wasn't equally brutal when it wanted to be), but also an end to stagnation and uniformity of thought that allowed creative solutions to political and social problems, religious reform, welfare and human rights, the development of universities, advancements in privately owned business, exploration, etc. that over a millennia and a half gave rise to the precursors of the modern nations, governments, religions, social and economic systems we live in today (which of course did not work out well for people trampled under Europe's colonial foot, but that brutality and conquest was no less common under the Romans).

Had Rome remained in central control we'd be living in a very different, but not likely more advanced society today. And they would have been no better prepared to handle the waves of plagues than Europe was, because the Eastern Empire was devastated by them too.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

^^^And the aqueducts.

 

[MacLeod]

The thing about flat earth was, it WAS a perfectly reasonable belief, hundreds of years ago where we didn't have obscene amounts of empirical proof it was spherical.

We are small enough compared to its size that it sure seems flat, if you don't look that hard.

So it's not the idea that it could be flat that's crazy so much as believing that millions and millions of people are part of an organized conspiracy to fabricate the idea it's not. For that many people's sense of reality and ability to trust to be that warped is beyond belief.

Unfortunatly it's not beyond belief that peoples sense of reality and ability to trust is warped. Take the moon landing conspiracy for example if the Americans had faked it don't you think the Soviets at the time would have been the first to call them on it? What about global warming causing climate change despite places around the planet recording record extremes in weather some people refuse to believe it because they can take a snow ball into congress. I can see how it can happen as we often tend to gravitate towards people who hold similiar beliefs to our own and so can get into echo chambers were our own beliefs are reinforced and we become less open to things that challange those beliefs.

All flat earthers have to do to prove to everyone they are right and everyone else is wrong is to show us the edge of "flat earth".

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Global warming at least requires massive investments to prove and an advanced degree to understand the evidence.

We live in a time where anyone with a few days and a few thousand bucks can circumnavigate the globe.

 

[StarCruiser]

It wasn't a matter of progress made, but rather progress recently lost. The fall of Rome had set human civilization back by centuries.

In Europe and maybe the Middle East/North Africa. Had no appreciable effect on India or China (etc.).

I thought about posting the same comment as Locutus of Bored but, figured there would be the exact mix of pushback... Sorry but, even the common sailor of Columbus' time was aware that the Earth was round - they new there was no edge to fall off of. The debate, in Columbus' time was how large the Earth actually was. He thought the world was roughly 5,000 miles smaller in circumference than it actually is.

His crew was mainly frightened of running out of food and water before finding any land - not falling off the edge of the world.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

There's a reason Columbus referred to Native Americans by the name Indians (Indios), and it wasn't because he thought the Earth was flat.

https://www.straightdope.com/213431...tion-of-native-americans-as-una-gente-in-dios