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FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discuss

Grading

  • Excellent

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • Above average

    Votes: 8 36.4%
  • Average

    Votes: 5 22.7%
  • Below average

    Votes: 5 22.7%
  • Poor

    Votes: 3 13.6%

  • Total voters
    22
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

But hell EVEN THAT isn't the silliest thing. No the silliest thing comes from what was in the briefcase because it looks like they have magical rings that prevent someone from passing out in the blackout associated with the flash forward.

Maybe they got their rings from the same place that the vampires on Vampire Diaries get theirs that them survive in the sunlight.
:lol:

But what I'm still confused by is why hire Ricky Jay to get the rings if he isn't going to do a sleight of hand magic trick with them as soon as they appear?
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

This show just doesn't depict people behaving like I know people behave.

Not in the face of what happened. They got back to normal so fast it was unrealistic. Other than moaning over their possible fates.

No one seems freaked over the plane wrecks, car crashes, deaths, etc. No one lost anyone? I guess the main cast was very lucky. :rolleyes:

I need to start doing my "Jericho-type" "reviews" again. Jericho was so ridiculous that all one could do was watch and laugh (or switch channels.)
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

Why is the entire world convinced of only one possible explanation? There should be a thousand competing explanations now - not just psychic hallucinations but that the whole thing is a government conspiracy caused by drugs dispersed in the atmosphere. Alien mind control. People insist on believing that Obama was born in Kenya. Can you imagine what kind of insane shit they'd come up with for something like this?

Because none of that would add to the show and just eat up money and screentime. I wouldn't waste my time watching that, and the Showrunners wouldn't want to waste their money on making it.

Handled correctly, it could be hilarious, biting satire. But now I'm describing the show I want to see, not the show these writers are capable of making.

Besides, acceptable behavior is a concept of the majority. As long as the majority of humanity believe in their FFs being FFs that is the acceptable behavior, while all that other stuff can go screw for all they care. Apparently one man's suicide wasn't enough to change the mass opinion.
Here's my problem with this whole premise - as far as we know, our lives are ruled by predestination now. We can't prove otherwise. But how many people live their lives assuming they have no free will? I've never met anyone like that. Maybe it's more common outside the Western world, but this show depicts Americans, and they simply do not behave like the Americans I've known all my life - people who are not inclined to believe in predestination at all. And now that they've been given an out, why wouldn't they return happily to their previous mode of thought? All people are creatures of habit.

Even if there were evidence of predestination, I think a large number of people, maybe a majority, would reject it. People seem to have no problem rejecting unpleasant realities and making up their own reality that suits them better.

I'm thinking that the FFs are supposed to happen but that Gough's suicide merely created a ripple effect that might cause them to happen in a different way now. Sort of like the Final Destination movies, where one person sees their future deaths, prevent it, but Death gets them in a different manner.

But Gough's outcome is completely different from his flash forward, so why should we assume anyone's futures will be similar in the slightest degree? Only because the characters think that, but like I said above, the people I know would tend not to want to think that. They'd prefer to think they are in total control of their destinies, so why wouldn't the jump right back into old mental habits that they've had their entire lives?

I need to start doing my "Jericho-type" "reviews" again. Jericho was so ridiculous that all one could do was watch and laugh (or switch channels.)
That might actually give me a reason to keep watching! :rommie:
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

it was the fact that everyone in the whole world had a similar experience (a blackout) at the same exact time that freaked everyone out and made them think it was an event of the most significance ever. For the first time in the history of the world all the people had a unifying moment-one moment in time that all people could compare. Reminds me on a smaller scale of the "where were you when Kennedy was killed?" questions of my youth. People had always thought they had total free will, but now they had to re-evaluate their mindset. Alot like the beginning of Lost, but now that it's been moving along a bit, it's losing the excitement and interest for me. Now that they think they can change the futures revealed to them, it's business as usual. The characters aren't that good. The only one I sort of like is Demetri.
That said, were those flashforwards the actual future or just some created by...the star tattoo guys.
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

And besides, now that every last human on Earth finally one moment of unity it's fully possible people continue to believe in the FFs because it brought them all closer together in its' bizarre way.
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

This show just doesn't depict people behaving like I know people behave.

Not in the face of what happened. They got back to normal so fast it was unrealistic. Other than moaning over their possible fates.

No one seems freaked over the plane wrecks, car crashes, deaths, etc. No one lost anyone? I guess the main cast was very lucky. :rolleyes:

I need to start doing my "Jericho-type" "reviews" again. Jericho was so ridiculous that all one could do was watch and laugh (or switch channels.)

Technically speaking, Simcoe lost the permanent caregiver for his autistic son. Also, Dominic Monaghan's character lost someone, it's just Davenport claimed it didn't matter to him.

And, technically, the horror of the losses are supposed to drive Fiennes to make a choice between sacrificing his marriage to fulfill the flashforward and catch the perpetrators, or sacrificing the capture to save his marriage.

But, obviously, picking characters who don't have much personal loss means not dramatizing the deaths. Merely verbalizing makes it less real, of course. And, waiting weeks to casually toss off "twenty million" is in my opinion an even more telling symptom of the decision to downplay the human toll. I think there are two motives for this. One, is that grief is genuinely dark. Lurid stuff like the blue hand cult is fake dark, which by contrast is generally acceptable. They even imagine this sort of stuff is bold, I suppose.

The other reason is that, if the flashforwards are to be some sort of divine warnings or rearrangements of surviving characters' lives, you can't ask sensible questions like, are twenty million deaths really a reasonable price for "Bryce" to get laid? Millions of people do in fact think that God is playing stage manager in a cosmic drama starring themselves. Sometimes they console themselves that they are the suffering hero of the play, but they never worry about the redshirts. They merely assume that the redshirts will utter their dialogue, then dramatically die on cue. (Nonsense about how people don't believe in predestination is extraordinary. I suspect some people are just making stuff up, to blast the evil Brannon Braga.:lol:)

But, every supposed redshirt is the star of his or her own drama. If each of us is uttering the dialogue in someone else's drama, where is our free will? Predestination means fulfilling a plan. But, if the future is instead the product of everyone's freely willed choices, where is the destiny? Every grownup knows there is a limit to our powers to affect the future. Indeed, every grownup knows that some things are beyond our power to affect. This is commonly felt to be tragic. All this is genuinely dark, which is why the novel, as well as the TV series, insists on the paradoxical ability to change the future.

Dramatizing the human toll threatens to raise the theological problem of evil. Hollywood is very conservative. It is surprising that FlashForward goes as far down that road as it did. It might even explain why first Braga, then Guggenheim were pushed out?

Foreknowledge is not the same thing at all as predestination. In practice, our free will, our ability to make choices, is profoundly limited by our ignorance. The flashforwards, if real glimpses of the future, offer choices, empower our free will. The pet shop keeper's initial attempt to fulfill the Bronx Zoo future because she wanted to is just the latest example of this in the show. The dramatic intensity of the choice between marriage and justice is why Joseph Fiennes is THE STAR of the show. The show has repeatedly shown characters as defined by the choice of how to respond to the knowledge offered by the flashforward. This is the dramatically valid choice. The mystery plot is the dubious part.

As I said above, millions of people do believe in predestination. But in daily life they don't think about it. That's because it is nonsense and has no practical application, save as emotional balm in times of crisis. When the characters talk about their fates and make choices about how to respond to their flashforwards, they are most definitely not acting like people today. But they are acting as real people might in such a bizarre situation.

This weird concept happens to dramatize issues about what we think of our lives, as in Does God have a plan for everthing? etc. As pointed out, the fact that millions shared a common vision compels the characters taking predestination and free will seriously. If we accept the internal premises of this factually impossible show, then questions relating to our lives arise. That's what makes the show interesting. As ever, if you can't accept the premises while viewing, then the show will be unengaging.

The mystery plot is horribly strung out. The need to limit the discoveries to the main cast and to stretch them out in time by such childish devices as having Fiennes refuse to question his own daughter about how she knows D. Gibbons is a bad man is due to serialization. Popular as serialization is in the bbs conventional thinking, it is responsible for such bad writing.
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

Wow, about time someone supporting the show wrote something that in-depth.
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

^^^Lots of what's written here is nonsense, probably inspired by reflexive Braga hate. There's lots to criticize, but this is, in my opinion obviously, when everything's said and done, at least a real SF drama, with real thematic interest. (The terrorist scenes or the fist fight between Noh and Fiennes are just plain awful, for any TV show, to admit a couple of horrid examples.)
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

Wow, about time someone supporting the show wrote something that in-depth.

He writes much longer posts when he says he hates a show that's a complete waste of his time. :lol:
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

Well there was that one fella who claimed to hate Enterprise yet watched every episode for all four seasons and posted about the show more than the biggest fans did. I got most of my warnings for poking him with a stick. :)
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

Average. Some parts were interesting, some parts were silly--sometimes both at once. Like the poker game: great discussion during, but idiotic concept, putting something like that on a game of cards, and Merry's non-reaction to Simcoe's cheating. As other have mentioned, I too was banging my head on the desk that nobody thinks more than one person can have the same tattoo, particularly when they've already mentioned that this is a pseudo-military organization with resources enough to have a mole in the FBI offices (which I'm glad they've now acknowledged--and I still think it's the older guy).

I don't know what to think about the thing with the rings... it sounds suspiciously like technobabble coming our way. That said, this episode did leave me with a better sense that the showrunners have an idea where they're going with all this. I suspect that it will be discovered that Beardo's daughter witnessed the extermination of a town that had been another test-bed for the flashforward technology (like that town in Somalia) under the cover of warfare, and that Jericho (I agree with whoever said with was a nod to Ravenwood, itself a Blackwater clone) will be the outfit we saw at the end, the guys with the triple-star tattoos. If they can get these various plotlines to tie together, it'll rememdy the apparent pointlessness of many of these minor characters. I was thinking, in fact, that the background of Merry and Nicole's visions look similar, and might be at the same location.

What else? While I'm glad that Gough's suicide wasn't forgotten about, and the metaphysical consequences of it explored, the whole thing with the newspaper and TV reports just emphasized how silly it was that it should take someone this long to change the future in such a clear, unalterable way, suicide or otherwise. And, of course, it adds to that strange sense that all the major developments in a global phenomenon are taking place within a few square blocks of L.A.

Maybe it's more common outside the Western world, but this show depicts Americans, and they simply do not behave like the Americans I've known all my life - people who are not inclined to believe in predestination at all.

¿Qué? America is infested with religio-magical thinking of exactly this type. There's a pseudo-Calvinist thread running through the idea of salvation articulated by the Religious Right, that whoever is Saved was always going to be such, that whoever falls was always going to fall; and that everything that happens is all part of the masterplan orchestrated by the Notorious G.O.D. What other western country believes it's elected leaders to actually be divinely appointed?

There's perhaps a bit of irony here in tha the audience reaction matches the characters' reactions; by which I mean, just as some characters seemed determined to view the flashforwards as an immutable version of the future, so to did some among the audience see the premise as one of predestination. And now some are actually disappointed that the idea of a pre-ordained future history has been replaced with the nihilistic uncertainty of free will--which, of course, was inevitable: knowledge of the future must imply the ability to choose differently, even, at the most basic level, choosing not to live. And Temis, it certainly isn't just any idea of the future: this is what would have happpened, what for some might still happen; the contents are certain in the original timeline, far from mere speculation. Precognition has nothing to do with it; consciousness was projected into the future. They call it visions, but what it really is, is memories--of events that have not yet occured, and now, because of foreknowledge, that may never occur. But the information is still valid. Beardo's daughter doesn't suddenly cease to be alive because the future can be changed; the facts of the future have their own undeniable inertia, and the new information they provided the characters have, indeed, changed their lives in ways they couldn't have anticipated. Well, except for those who had boring flashes like the FBI boss.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

More like a boring "flush"! :lol:
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

^ She's here all week, folks; tip your waiters.
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

Below Average.

I thought this was as bad if not worse than the Nazi episode.

The card game was stupid. I mean, who were those people they were playing with and talking in front of? "Mass-murder...oh, it's Manchester slang!" (or whatever he said).

And how could the main guy be so stupid as to think killing one guy with stars on his arm would change his future? Does he think there's only three in the world?

The guy's daughter has been "on the run" for two years? With a blown-off leg? What?

A lot of blather and not much progress. We didn't really learn one thing about the event. Except bad guys wear rings.

This show is quickly turning into Defying Gravity. Will my desire to know the reason behind the blackout override my desire to be truly entertained?

Stay tuned....
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

No one seems freaked over the plane wrecks, car crashes, deaths, etc.
Hell, no one seems concerned about that the unexplained blackouts that killed 20 million people could happen again at any time.
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

Does anyone know if this show gets any better? I'm on the verge of dropping it.
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

Does anyone know if this show gets any better? I'm on the verge of dropping it.
You mean, has any of us had a flashforward to a future episode? I haven't. :vulcan:
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

My FlashForward is of FlashForward being cancelled. They'd better get the plot motoring in the next couple of episodes or I'm bailing on this one.
 
Re: FlashForward: "Playing Cards with Coyote" 11/12/09 - Grade & Discu

Can we replace "poor" with "piss poor"?
 
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