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FlashForward: "Believe" 11/19/09 - Grading & Discussion

Grading

  • Excellent

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • Above average

    Votes: 10 45.5%
  • Average

    Votes: 5 22.7%
  • Below average

    Votes: 4 18.2%
  • Poor

    Votes: 2 9.1%

  • Total voters
    22
Don't you just love it when episodes have 50% Above Average vote, and then the entire thread consists of people whining about the show and vowing not to watch it anymore. :rommie:

Also why didn't get the cancer doctor a visit by the police after his freak accident with the old-timer?
He crashed the car several times and then left the scene.
Surely this is not standard procedure when having a breakdown, and surely the police must have have found him before he even got onto the plane to fake Tokyo.
If the police had visited him, it would have been way before the visit to Tokyo... a few months earlier, or to be precise, 4 weeks before the blackout, since that's when he crashed that car, right after the visit to the doctor.

Ugh, again, I hate reading TV.
:confused:

I, you mean, you hate subtitles?

Well, I've been watching TV with subtitles my entire life, and has everyone else I know, and nobody finds it difficult in the slightest. And I don't really believe that we're more literate as a nation than Americans. :shifty:

But I don't think I've ever seen a show so determined to make its lead character an unlikable douche.
Lost? ;)
 
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Don't you just love it when episodes have 50% Above Average vote, and then the entire thread consists of people whining about the show and vowing not to watch it anymore. :rommie:
That describes every voting thread that ever existed here. :rommie:
Well, I've been watching TV with subtitles my entire life, and has everyone else I know, and nobody finds it difficult in the slightest.
Well, if you're used to it, then of course...you're used to it. Right? :rommie:

It's still pretty unusual in America. Heroes, Lost and now FlashForward are the only examples I can think of. And there's been plenty of carping about those other two shows, too.

But I don't think I've ever seen a show so determined to make its lead character an unlikable douche.
Lost? ;)
I have been thinking of Jackass in comparison to Mark, but Mark is even worse! The Lost situation is far worse than FlashForward which makes jackassery among any of the characters understanable. Plus Jackass is played by an inherently unlikable actor, and therefore it may all be accidental in Lost's case but Joseph Fiennes isn't unlikable to the least degree so someone is doing it on purpose!
 
Some people are acting as though the flashforwards are inevitably true, because they consider them as omens (more or less divine warnings.) Random glimpses of an irrelvant future that will no longer come to pass are entirely uninteresting, which is what Dr. Benford seems to believe. (Not for sure, the female characters are not well conceived at all, in my opinion. Olivia is the weak link in the show, and it's not because Sonya Walger is a bad actress, or so I think.)

It was never possible that the flashforwards showed "the" future that would have come to pass without the flashforwards. Mark's bulletin board recapped an investigation derived from his flashforward. (A causal loop like that is not a paradox in the sense of being self contradictory.) The possibility that they are merely a glimpse of "the" future was refuted by Mark burning the friendship bracelet, as well as Gough's suicide. The flashforwards now have an element of contingency that really is paradoxical, as well as smelling of divine planning.

This comes from the book, so is not a horrible shock to me. The show will no more satisfactorily "explain" how there is just one future to see, or how it could be changed, than the book did. Or for that matter, than any other time travel paradox story. Since the mystery will inevitably leave the most interesting aspect unresolved, the trivial details, arbitrarily stretched out for an arbitrary length of time, cannot be particularly well handled.

This episode, by getting away from the mystery plot's necessary time killing, is pretty affecting. It's interesting because the show at least understands that Bryce's choices are determined by what he thinks about the flashforward. He is plainly an idiot, but it's okay because he is a religious idiot, albeit carefully nondenominational and antitheological in the politically correct Hollywood way. Most of the character stories hinge on this, which gives the show a thematic unity and weight that makes up (for me, at least,) some of the decidedly adolescent writing.

This is Goyer's show, even if Braga hate is blinding some of the posters here. The hokey melodrama, fake conflict between two guys acting like assholes, meaningles (aka boring) action scenes, etc. are pretty much what Goyer thinks is good drama. How is it worse than the Batman movies?

Lastly, Mark Benford is a genuinely flawed hero. He's an alcoholic who is choosing between his marriage and sobriety and possibly his very life, or finding out the solution to the mystery but he's still thinking about it!
 
And lastly, WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL ASSUMING THE FLASH FORWARDS WILL COME TRUE!!!!??? Bryce is betting his life on the veracity of his flash forward. Well, if one guy's flash forward didn't happen, how does anyone know any of them will? Bryce could croak tomorrow, so why is he wasting time flying to Tokyo? It's like Gough's suicide never happened! Poor guy.

There's no way for Bryce to have known about Gough's suiside and it's effects the same is true for most of the other characters as well.

The world knows about Gough's suicide and what it proved, the episode after he committed suicide it started off showing a newspaper stand with the headline being about Gough's suicide and you had some type of news show shown on tv with commentators talking about the future having been proven not to be unchangeable.

The letter Gough wrote to the woman he hit was delivered to her and then she went on tv and the entire world is aware of it. The only way Bryce would have no idea is if #1) He watches no TV, #2)He reads no newspapers, #3)He NEVER talks to anyone in the hospital about anything because that would have immediately been brought up to him, especially since Bryce can't go more then 2 seconds without mentioning his FF I'm sure someone would have said "So what do you think about the guy who showed the future isn't set in stone?"

Yeah but Gough's suicide isn't the first one, merely the first of the characters to do it. Still there's no reason for it to affect Bryce, in his vision he gets to meet a good looking woman who's obvious been looking forward to meeting him as well.

Most of these characters are making their future happen despite what they saw in their visions. Of all the main characters who had a vision I'd say that Bryce would be looking forward to it happening the most, the others all have somthing terrible happening to them and they seem to rushing headlong right into what they saw in their visions iin the first place.
 
Poor. i dont care for AA sponsor, i dont care for his daughter... i liked Dr. Suicide until this last episode. i dont care for the main guy, and found it absurd that the two people took suck offense at him suggesting they texted his wife.

this show is horrible (but i need something to pass the time at dinner when my netflix shows arent ready). it tries to be smart, but it's just dumb. it has a few smart ideas and then makes them dumb...

it's like a SUV or Humvee full of potential drives up, and suddenly some dumb guys show up and launch a rocket of stupidity at it, then from behind the blown-up wreckage emerges a new and dumber more implausible scenario with guns blazing, leaving the audience on the ground crippled by the stupid rocket.
 
Random glimpses of an irrelvant future that will no longer come to pass are entirely uninteresting,
Which is why the writers shouldn't have invalidated predestination because they just made their premise uninteresting. But if they wanted to do that, they should go with it, not pretend they never did it. What incoherent writing. Choose a premise and stick with it!

If the show centered on a non-Western society, I'd be quicker to believe that the characters see the flashes as omens. But in a Western society, particularly America, people are very resistant to the idea of not being in control of their lives. As far as we know, our lives are governed by predestination now, yet how many Americans choose to believe that? I've never met a single one. And I'm supposed to believe in a bunch of American characters who suddenly change the cultural habits of a lifetime? It's far more likely that, once given an "out," they will quickly return to their accustomed mindset that predestination is bunk.

My observation of human nature is that people make up their minds how to live and are incredibly resistant to change. You can wave proof of something in front of their faces and they'll just ignore it or make up a reason why it's wrong or doesn't apply to them. (As a fellow habitue of TNZ, I'm sure you see this on a daily basis. Or turn on Fox News for further proof.) ;) Some weird hallucination might disorient them for a while, but they'd quickly forget it and return to their old habits. I'd bet a lot of people would had done that even if Gough hadn't given them an excuse. This premise assumes people are far more rational than they really are, and far less driven by habit and delusion.

The possibility that they are merely a glimpse of "the" future was refuted by Mark burning the friendship bracelet, as well as Gough's suicide.
The friendship bracelet didn't prove anything since the daughter could have made another one. Gough's suicide was the first definitive proof that predestination wasn't governing their lives.

Lastly, Mark Benford is a genuinely flawed hero. He's an alcoholic who is choosing between his marriage and sobriety and possibly his very life, or finding out the solution to the mystery but he's still thinking about it!
Since anything can happen, Mark could figure out the flash forward mystery and stay sober as a deacon. There's no reason to believe his flash forward has a certain probability of coming true. It might have less probability of coming true than him being hit by lighting on that particular day. And presumably he isn't letting the fear of random, but possible, fatal accident rule his life so why should he give a second thought to a flash forward that may not have anything to do with anything?
Yeah but Gough's suicide isn't the first one, merely the first of the characters to do it.
He was the first person to commit suicide in order to disprove predestination (or perhaps the first who managed to communicate his intent). Without using the suicide to send that message, the person committing suicide wouldn't receive the attention they craved. The attention is the point of the suicide.

And someone would have craved that attention long before Gough did. With 6.5 billion people on the planet, I wouldn't be surprised if potential Goughs numbered in the tens of thousands. It's really not so rare for suicidal people to want to make some statement with their death that will grant them immortality.

Still there's no reason for it to affect Bryce
He's behaving as though he can ignore his cancer, that it won't kill him or incapacitate him at any moment. Then again, he was suicidal, so perhaps he simply doesn't care what happens to him.

Mark, Demitri and Olivia are bigger problems - why are they acting like they can't easily sidestep their terrible futures? Demitri can't be "murdered" unless he's around people - just go somewhere that he's a thousand miles away from the nearest human or lock himself into a vault for the whole day.

Mark could simply decide not to go into work that day and his flash forward can't happen. Is someone going to drag him into work kicking and screaming? Why doesn't he just go on vacation to Cancun, or Antarctica, so that he's thousands of miles away on that day?

Olivia decides she isn't going to cheat on her husband, period. Problem solved. And the babysitter goes on vacation in the Sahara, where it is physically impossible to be drowned due to total lack of water. These people need to use their imaginations more, or the writers do.

Most of these characters are making their future happen despite what they saw in their visions.
Mark, Olivia, Demitri and the babysitter whose name I still haven't learned have a motive to avoid their futures. They just aren't using their heads.
 
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Has it? There's more to the plot than just "the cause of the blackout", as we're learning.
 
Well, as I've said before, this is not a miniseries. It's designed to run for a while. If we find out what the cause of the blackout people will complain. This is a character drama, and it's not what people wanted, but I tend to like stuff like this so I'm sticking with it.

I advise people to quit watching and wait for the episode where they reveal what's going on if you don't like it. Masochism isn't nice.
 
I advise people to quit watching and wait for the episode where they reveal what's going on if you don't like it. Masochism isn't nice.

You realize you're on a board where people who claimed to hate Enterprise would watch every single episode and dedicate a majority of their posts here to the show? Same goes for Battlestar Galactica, where the most vocal (and repetitive) hater wrote one post that was probably a few thousand words long.
 
This is a character drama
That's the problem. These characters are dull, and the show can't really hinge on keeping us interested in them.
You realize you're on a board where people who claimed to hate Enterprise would watch every single episode and dedicate a majority of their posts here to the show?

STEWEY! Good times, good times. Wonder whatever happened to that guy.
 
Which is why the writers shouldn't have invalidated predestination because they just made their premise uninteresting.

If the flashforwards are inspirations or warnings, then the flashforwards are (divine?) interventions. They are stage directions for the characters. It's the existence of a greater plan that makes predestination different from the consequences of everyone's freely willed choices. Of course, nudges from the Planner(s) aimed at getting the play to come out right is incompatible with genuine free will. But millions of people view themselves as stars of a Cosmic Drama written by God. Getting stage directions will not be a problem for them.

But Bryce doesn't want to die of cancer and Bryce wants a wonderful romance with a really hot chick. If it takes the deaths of twenty million people to provide him with hints to his destiny, then it's a happy ending. Twenty million dead is a small price for the revelation that it is Miss Arahida's destiny to be a rock star with a baby faced boy friend. The emotional appeal of the episode is the fantasy fulfilment of a wildly romantic fantasy of True Love And Sucess, both. Aren't all of us exposed to the religious and romantic fantasies in this story?

It is practically impossible for the show to resolve the paradox of visions that can be treated as warnings or inspirations. The interest is in the variety of characters' responses.

Bryce is straightforward wish fulfilment, including ignoring the cancer as much as possible.

Olivia seems to have concluded that she won't begin an affair with Simcoe, end of story.

Mark seems to want to fulfill as much as possible to solve the mystery except he doesn't want the assassins and the booze part, and his dilemma is how to get both.

Demetri will not take such actions as deciding to lock himself in a vault today, since this is not murder day, and what he'll do on March 19 (wasn't that the date?) is yet to be revealed.

Babysitter Nicole (isn't she Bryce Varley's sister?) also is not yet at the point to engage in decisive action but she is a very badly drawn character. I have no idea what she wants or thinks.

Hawk appeared to be heading towards treating the flashforward as a divine promise that she could be successful in pregnancy despite her injury. I gather the character is being dropped at network command. Twenty million dead for a lesbian to get a happy ending is theologically offensive?

Monaghan's character, whose name I forgot, seems to be steeling himself for the murder, sure that it is inevitable and desirable, on the grounds that he is the guy with the clear thinking and strength of will to do what is necessary.

Weddig, played by a Black actor, is unimportant, as revealed by his indifference to his wife's vision of an adoptive son in the family.
 
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