Flash Forward (Braga's new show)
- Thread starter The Habs Fan
- Start date
I'm intrigued. Never thought I'd say that about a Braga show, but you know...
I won't watch it and I hope it tanks. Braga can go fly a kite.
Well, he get's no bad rap from me. Sure everything he did on Trek may have not been a "winner", but at least he put some effort in and provided some memorable episodes, including a ST:TNG episode where they all wake up, "Conundrum".
Braga made some good ST:V episodes, despite studio interferance and what he had to work with, and experiemented and tried to do interesting ideas and situations on the shows.
Assuming he's had time to flesh this out properly, this could be an interesting show.
Braga made some good ST:V episodes, despite studio interferance and what he had to work with, and experiemented and tried to do interesting ideas and situations on the shows.
Assuming he's had time to flesh this out properly, this could be an interesting show.
Wait, Braga is EP on 24 now? That show has like 50 EPs... I'm guessing that Coto brought him in?
Anyway, I'm still waiting for a Braga/Moore reunion tour.
Anyway, I'm still waiting for a Braga/Moore reunion tour.
All of you apparently missed the part that Braga won't be the head writer on this show. He's one of its executive producers, but will be continuing to work on 24 while others take the lead on Flash Forward. So it's not "a Braga show." It's just a show that Braga is involved with as one of multiple executives.
Just to nitpick, as cowriter of the pilot script, there's a sense in which it's "Braga's" show. Especially if Goyer is one of those producers who insists on getting a writing credit (for the money and the prestige, such as it is---some people do foolishly insist that the primary creator is the writer!) and the real creative force is Braga.
But it's already obvious that this bbs will hate the series, sight unseen. When the show debuts, posters will quickly seize on one of the old standard libels against Braga and that's be it. They did it to Threshold, which was instantly dubbed as repetitive. Which it wasn't.
It's really weird how fans on a bbs cast the producers and directors into hero/villain categories with no logical reason at all. You'd think Goyer would get some credit with this bbs for the new Batman, after all.
But it's already obvious that this bbs will hate the series, sight unseen. When the show debuts, posters will quickly seize on one of the old standard libels against Braga and that's be it. They did it to Threshold, which was instantly dubbed as repetitive. Which it wasn't.
It's really weird how fans on a bbs cast the producers and directors into hero/villain categories with no logical reason at all. You'd think Goyer would get some credit with this bbs for the new Batman, after all.
No, I'm actually not that stupid. I read the article. But I distinctly saw BRANNON BRAGA.
Looks like Brent Spinner will have new series
maybe as a jobless scientist who with his flash of the future, gets ideas to make things that shouldn't be in the present yet.
I'd like to see Spiner back, but with nothing to do with science/tech/nerdiness. He can be a badass cop or a slimy politician or anything else.
Well, first, with film credit usually goes to the director. Without Nolan, the new Batman wouldn't be the Batman that everyone is in love with now. For better or for worse, that's just how it is.
And with Braga, I'm sorry but there's just his track record. Threshold followed the exact same pattern as the first two seasons of Enterprise and the majority of Voyager. The series continuity is very fast and loose and the emphasis is on the "episode of the week" conceit rather than on a larger story.
The joke with Enterprise is that you could watch the first episode of a season and the last episode of the season and you would have seen everything you needed to know about the "Temporal Cold War"... straight up to the Space Nazis (tm).
The problem is, for better or for worse, modern SciFi fans don't like the CSI/L&O type of serialized storytelling where everything remains the same except for stunning cliffhangers and cast changes (byebye Kes, Hello Seven). That's why I find it interesting that he'll be somehow involved in 24, which just in form and structure is the very anti-thesis of how modern Star Trek worked.
Nothing could be further from the truth. A lot of people jumped to that conclusion about Threshold based on the first three or so episodes, and so they tuned out before the larger story arc really began to show itself. Ironically, CBS cancelled the show immediately before an episode that really kicked the arc into high gear and proved once and for all that Threshold was as far from an "episode of the week" show as you can get. Hell, the producers had plans for a story that was so serialized, continuity-driven, and constantly changing and escalating that they were actually considering changing the title of the show each season to reflect how much more extreme the alien invasion had gotten (Threshold, Foothold, Stranglehold).
In fact, there was a subversive quality to the series format -- they started out looking like another standard weekly TV series with the status quo being largely maintained and the aliens held in check and the secret kept from the public, but that was just to set us up for the twist that the invasion would keep getting worse and worse and the aliens would essentially succeed in taking over the world, to the point that by the third season the protagonists would've been more like a resistance underground than anything else.
I remember the online reviews of the early episodes -- a lot of people were complaining about how unbelievable it was that the alien signal was so powerful and pervasive, because they didn't buy that the series could credibly portray it as something that could be defeated and kept from spreading on a long-term basis. But that wasn't an error -- it was a clue that the signal wouldn't be held in check, that the status quo wouldn't be maintained. People saw an "episode of the week" series because that's what they were predisposed to expect, not because it's what was actually there to be seen. If you actually go back and watch those episodes, you can see that every single one of them lays down a plot point or character dynamic that becomes important to the evolving narrative later on. Unfortunately, the show was just a bit too subtle about this, and audiences today are too impatient, so by the time the evolving storyline really began to emerge, the show had already been cancelled.
Okay, I have to stop you. Any assertion that treats "fans" as a monolithic group with uniform tastes is fatally flawed right there. Fans as a whole can't agree that water is wet. I'm a fan, and personally I think this obsession with serialization has gone a bit overboard. There was a time when serial storytelling was considered lowbrow, the stuff of soap operas, and only purely episodic drama was considered sophisticated and respectable. Serialization isn't smarter or better, it's just fashionable. If anything, there's a certain laziness to serialization, to telling just a fragment of a story at a time; it's easier to get people to come back by leaving a story unfinished than it is to tell a complete story so well that they want to come back for more stories even after you finish it.
Not just "will be somehow involved." He's a co-executive producer and writing staffer for the entire 2009 season (which will reunite him with Manny Coto, who holds the same title on 24; they'll both be working under showrunner Howard Gordon). And maybe his involvement with this most serialized of shows will help dispel some people's stereotypes of the man -- though I doubt it, given the inexplicable ferocity and irrationality of some people's hostility toward him.
So far as Threshold goes, who knows if most around really thought the show was episodic or just repeated a stock criticism? The first regular episode---which I've heard called the second pilot, for good reason---started mixing up the story line with the discovery that an alien proble had already come to Earth decades ago. I suspect the real objection was that the male lead didn't kill anyone.
Nor am I sure that people didn't understand that the aliens were supposed to be slowly but surely winning. I rather think that was another cause for distaste. SF shows can say the bad guys are winning, but actually showing it, episode after episode, is something else. Unlike many shows, Threshold did not have a large audience tuning in for episode one, disliking what they saw and never coming back. For whatever reason, people never sampled Threshold in large numbers. Since it was a fairly serialized show, latecomers were probably turned away.
As for Braga on 24---he has tendencies toward cliche and sophomoric "dark and gritty." He also has a sense of humor, as well as a genuine interest in playing with ideas, which has helped him overcome that to a degree. But 24 sounds perfectly suited to bring out his real flaws. But that has nothing to do with serialization---Season 3 of Enterprise was serialized. I thought it was a distinct drop in quality for that reason.
Lastly, on directors getting the credit---I was being polite. The primary creators of movies are the scriptwriters, followed by producers, cinematographers, editors, maybe designers and composers. In the immortal words quoted by Gore Vidal, "The director is the brother-in-law."
Nor am I sure that people didn't understand that the aliens were supposed to be slowly but surely winning. I rather think that was another cause for distaste. SF shows can say the bad guys are winning, but actually showing it, episode after episode, is something else. Unlike many shows, Threshold did not have a large audience tuning in for episode one, disliking what they saw and never coming back. For whatever reason, people never sampled Threshold in large numbers. Since it was a fairly serialized show, latecomers were probably turned away.
As for Braga on 24---he has tendencies toward cliche and sophomoric "dark and gritty." He also has a sense of humor, as well as a genuine interest in playing with ideas, which has helped him overcome that to a degree. But 24 sounds perfectly suited to bring out his real flaws. But that has nothing to do with serialization---Season 3 of Enterprise was serialized. I thought it was a distinct drop in quality for that reason.
Lastly, on directors getting the credit---I was being polite. The primary creators of movies are the scriptwriters, followed by producers, cinematographers, editors, maybe designers and composers. In the immortal words quoted by Gore Vidal, "The director is the brother-in-law."
That may be so. But I'm not trying to debate why the show failed; I'm simply trying to dispel the misconception that it was "just another episodic Braga show."
Well, I gave up on 24 after less than two episodes, since I'm not interested in ultraviolent, ultra-right-wing torture porn anyway. Since I don't like the show to begin with, it doesn't matter to me how good or bad a job he does.
Actually I think Threshold played to Braga's strengths, because he was good at the eerie high-concept stuff, stories of darkness and paranoia, and stories that bent reality or challenged perceptions of it. I think he really could've thrived there if it had lasted.
Yes, I've read about the long term plans for the show as well. But the fact is, he didn't implement that plan. Maybe he was working with the assumption that, like Star Trek, he'd get a free pass for a few seasons to do whatever he wanted. Should he have tried to show that he wasn't planning to just rehash the same TNG/VOY/ENT format again? As someone familiar with his previous work, my answer would be yes. I watched all the aired episodes of Threshold and I saw was a story structure similar to ENT and the TCW storyline. A big pilot, episodes that generally don't matter, a mid-season climax for sweeps, more episodes that don't matter and finally a cliffhanger.
And sure, maybe there are SF fans that prefer the episodic, alien of the week story structure. But given the fact that the successful genre shows on TV now are serialized, I would think that there's a trend. That said, there's no reason why that wouldn't change in 10 years and everyone goes back to episodic storytelling again.
As for 24, like I jokingly said earlier. The show has more Executive Producers than actors. Even Keifer himself is a EP. So how much will he even contribute? I honestly don't know.
And sure, maybe there are SF fans that prefer the episodic, alien of the week story structure. But given the fact that the successful genre shows on TV now are serialized, I would think that there's a trend. That said, there's no reason why that wouldn't change in 10 years and everyone goes back to episodic storytelling again.
As for 24, like I jokingly said earlier. The show has more Executive Producers than actors. Even Keifer himself is a EP. So how much will he even contribute? I honestly don't know.
I was watching it at the time, and remember very clearly how the series progressed:
1. Is this going to be a wholly episodic series? Man, this is cliched.
2. Oh, wait, there's a plot arc developing. Maybe I won't bail, despite the dire, cliched writing.
3. Cancellation.
The emerging plot arc was what kept me watching. But if they're going to present a plot arc, I think they need to toss it into the ring from the first episode. Zapper trigger fingers are far too itchy nowadays for anything else.
That sounds a lot more "standard" than "subversive," but I would have been up for it. But they shouldn't have given a misleading impression for one millisecond, not if they wanted to survive.
No, it is inherently better. Serialization allows deeper thematic development and character growth. The best examples of this are on HBO and Showtime, where serialization is the norm. Now it's creeping into basic cable, which is starting to compete with the big boys. Of the Best Drama Nominees for the Emmys this year, at least four are strongly serialized: Mad Men, Damages, Lost, Dexter (dunno about the other two, I don't watch). Mad Men is going to win (tho I'd perfer Lost or Dexter) and if the show weren't serialized, the quality that people are recognizing in it would be impossible.
Mad Men is clearly developing their characters over years - to try to do what they're doing within 40 minutes and then do it over and over again for years instead, would be flat-out idiotic. Once you've done it, why even do it again? Stop the series with the first episode - the story has been told!
With Mad Men, several hours per character would need to be devoted to just exploring the ways in which they are stuck in their respective hells, and then many hours more to showing the glacial but inevitable process of self-realization. They're already well into S2 and most of the characters have barely budged from the starting line.
Forty minutes is just too short of a time span for most worthwhile stories. It's much smarter to allow yourself a variety of time lengths - several episodes, half a season, several years, depending on what your story needs, rather than to take every story and cram it into the same arbitrary length of time. How creatively stifling can you get.
Audiences still like episodic TV just fine: look at sitcoms, police procedurals, doctor shows, lawyer shows. There's a big market for the comfort food of plopping down in from of the TV and watching a formula run through its paces each week. It's not for me, but don't act like it doesn't exist.
But sci fi viewers seem to be turning against the format, probably becasue sci fi fans in particular have different interests than the CSI crowd. If you want to do a serialized show, appeal to the CSI crowd, don't do sci fi. And don't expect any Emmys. You can't put your show in a creative straightjacket and expect to compete with those who are allowed more freedom.
It's a good example of why serialization is no panacea, that's for sure! Boring cardboard villains and the continuing annoying illogic of the bullshit "Temporal Cold War" will suck regardless of the format.
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No offence to you or any screenwriters out there, but the fact is a good director can save a bad script but not the other way around.
Yes, good directors surround themselves with talent, which is why they hand out Oscars in all the categories mentioned, but awful directing will ruin a film just like great directing can elevate a film.
I mean, there's a reason why people say Triumph of the Will or Birth of a Nation are horribly beautiful films and there's a reason they're taught in film courses despite their content.
I've always maintained that in the Braga/Moore pairing, Braga was the hard SF guy and Moore was the soft SF guy, hence the difference in tone between DS9 and VOY. Braga's strength is doing wacky SF stories, which is why on the TNG DVDs he's proud of the episodes where there are timeloops and parallel dimensions. He just needs someone to help him take those ideas and make them workable as a long running series, which is where the soft SF stuff comes in.
No it's not better just different and it doesn't bring in anymore viewers than the episodic shows do in fact they bring in less viewers and don't last as long. If anything if forces people to watch a show week after week then the show gets cancelled due to low ratings and they have to made some kind of movie of the week to try and finish the storylines they started on the show.
I'm sure Braga can defend himself.
