FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to ___.

[Kinnison]

So, comparing my copies of Franz Joseph's Technical Manual and Ships of the Star Fleet vol. 1, it's obvious that the Heavy Cruiser depicted in the TM is an Achernar-class CH. Clearly the Achernar is intended to be more advanced than the ("The Cage" version) Constitution-class.

My library of Mastercom / Star Station Aurora material is limited to the two SotSF books and the Ingram-class blueprints.

So what, according to the Mastercom folks, are the other ships in the TM? Is the Destroyer a Saladin-class, or a Coshise? Is the Saladin a "Cage"-style ship, or is the Coshise a TMP-style ship? Likewise for the other classes. How have the Mastercom folks worked Joseph's material into their design lineages?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Timo]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

Judging by the sometimes vague credits from Jim Stevenson's www.shipschematics.net, the separate, TMP-style design for Cochise is the handiwork of aridas sofia / Mastercom. Hence one would suspect that FJ's original would be either Saladin or Siva. But Mastercom has also devised a Siva that is not a minor revamp of the FJ drawing, but instead a whole new configuration, with twin dorsal nacelles. So the FJ ship should by Mastercom accounts be the Saladin - although potentially a 2260s refit, not the original 2220s configuration.

Similarly, there's a TMP era Cygnus, as well as a novel scout named Amerind, created by the Mastercom team, so the FJ scout would be the Hermes or the Monoceros. But the Monoceros for Mastercom is also a separate design with dorsal nacelles, so again the FJ image should be taken to represent the original class or its later refit.

Ships of the Star Fleet is a bit hazy on whether the Achernar is supposed to be a refit of preexisting older Constitution hulls; my vote goes for "no", but that's neither here nor there. The dorsal-nacelled destroyers might or might not be what the original FJ destroyer and scout designs were eventually refitted into (the change from Bonhomme Richard to Achernar would actually be more drastic and less plausible), but Mastercom's ship recognition chart maintains that at least one example of each of the original FJ designs still survives till the 2290s essentially unaltered.

I sort of think that FJ intended the subclasses like Siva or Cygnus to be minimal modifications of the basic design shown in the drawings, rather than parallel or competing classes. But that's just one interpretation, and the Mastercom take where they are all dissimilar is quite valid as well. It just muddles things a bit that we think that the FJ cruisers were refits of each other - even though nothing in the FJ material actually suggests that. The only ship we know to have been refit is the Enterprise, and for all we know FJ thought that all her various refits have represented the Constitution class whereas his Achernar looked more like Miranda and his Tikopai had one dorsal and one ventral nacelle.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vance]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

Mastercom uses FJ's manual as a rough base, but doesn't really stick to it all that much once you're past the initial builds of each class. So, the Saladin, Hermes, Constitution, Ptolemy, and Federation are there - and most of the first-wave build ships are there (but not always as their intended class) ... but that's about as far as it gets.

 

[Timo]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

...Just to be sure, let's point out that the pictures I linked to above are the handiwork of Vance, or at least they look like that. (The original designs by aridas and friends have only been paper-published in silhouette form.)

:thumbsup:

Timo Saloniemi

 

[137th Gebirg]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

^^^ Not all of them - the Cochise, Cygnus and Amerind were all put together by me for the SSDB based on the Aridas silhouettes. Never knew if they were 100% correct or not. The Monoceros schematic you cited is Vance's.

 

[Vance]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

I haven't done the Cochise (and similar) ships yet because I've never settled on getting a warp engine that looks right with that silhouette. I've been thinking of taking another stab at it soon (and more TMP-era parts wouldn't hurt) and do something a smidge different.

 

[aridas sofia]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

137th Gebirg said:
^^^ Not all of them - the Cochise, Cygnus and Amerind were all put together by me for the SSDB based on the Aridas silhouettes. Never knew if they were 100% correct or not. The Monoceros schematic you cited is Vance's.

And they are all generally correct. My versions, which someday I'll get around to executing in polished form, vary only in the details. Most particularly, on the Cochise, Cygnus and Amerind classes, on the ACE nacelle. That's no surprise, as that design was my own creation, based on talks with Andy Probert about how those guys envisioned the TMP nacelles working, and this painting --

It purposely avoided reusing the "linear" nacelle from the refit 1701, because the understanding was that those nacelles couldn't work solo. The answer was to come up with a suitably TMP version of the original series' "circumferential" nacelle -- the Advanced Circumferential Nacelle. ACE. Based on Andy's general nacelle concept above.

As for the heavy cruisers, Achernar (FJ's design) was to be a new build, and other older cruisers were to be refit with many of her advanced systems. Bonhomme Richard was similarly a new build class that set the standard the earlier Constitution class was uprated to. Finally, Constitution herself was a new build class, and several of the earlier Horizon/Archon class cruisers were refit to their standard.

The extent to which any of the refits were systems upgrades, or actual physical rebuilds to match the new class lines, was left somewhat unclear. On purpose. The only one that was specifically shown was Constellation, and it was assumed she got a massive workover as great or greater than that seen in TMP. This was in recognition of her namesake, the U.S. frigate Constellation, that was built in Baltimore in 1797 and broken up in Norfolk in 1854, only to have 10-15% of her timbers reused in a new corvette (with very different line than the original) by the same name.

 

[aridas sofia]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

Oh, BTW... it's not as if I've done nothing on the Cygnus. She's just not ready for launching...

 

[Vance]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

So, the question, Aridas, is 'Is the new cygnus going to match the old silhouette'?

More seriously, have you actually done design work on the ACE-38 yet? Or is that still 'in limbo'?

 

[aridas sofia]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

Vance said:
So, the question, Aridas, is 'Is the new cygnus going to match the old silhouette'?

Yes. pretty much exactly. It might differ a little around the impulse engine, and the nacelle.

More seriously, have you actually done design work on the ACE-38 yet? Or is that still 'in limbo'?

I don't recall what the ACE-38 was. You'll have to refresh my memory.

 

[Vance]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

Yes. pretty much exactly. It might differ a little around the impulse engine, and the nacelle.

It's the Nacelle that would be the issue, I think. I've gotten many, many requests to schematic-up the Cygnus type, but I haven't touched it. (One, because of our .. ahem... heated moments, and two, because I never knew if it was ever finalized).

I don't recall what the ACE-38 was. You'll have to refresh my memory.

That's the number given to me for the Cygnus's warp engine. (The LN-40 being Monoceros). I have no idea if that's 'correct' or not, mind you.

 

[Kinnison]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

Hey, thanks for the answers, everyone. I managed to dig up a copy of the "frigate evolution chart," which shows the Ptolemy-class tug as depicted by Franz Joseph, so that rounds off the discussion, I think. I can confidently say that the FJ designs, with the exception of the CH, are just what they appear to be in the Tech Manual.

Aridas, do you have a website with your newer work on it? I'm not used to seeing these things in color, but I like what you've done for the Cygnus thus far. Does Todd Guenther still post here? I've been gone for a few years, but there was talk of a new SotSF book back then.

 

[aridas sofia]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

Aridas, do you have a website with your newer work on it?

I had FederationReference.com, and still own the domain, but differences with the site developer led to the site coming down. I'd be willing to participate in an FRS site again, but my time is stretched too thin right now to get into building what I'd build if I were going to do it myself.

I'm not used to seeing these things in color, but I like what you've done for the Cygnus thus far.

I spent about two years fleshing out color illustrations, historical ruminations, and other odd bits and pieces, of the past history of Star Fleet as pictured in the FRS. All that was done over at the FRS website. Some of it is still posted online at my Photobucket site, and you are welcome to take a look at what's there if you like:

http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n167/aridas_sofia/trek/?start=all

Does Todd Guenther still post here? I've been gone for a few years, but there was talk of a new SotSF book back then.

I haven't seen Todd post in a long time, and have heard nothing recently form him about a new volume. There was talk of it, and he fleshed out some color illustrations of the Pompey class and its evolution over time, but frankly I think there wasn't enough interest when those things were posted at FRS.com to give him hope an expensive SotSF-style publication would clear costs. I suspect he's moved on to other things.

 

[ahkyahnan]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

aridas sofia said:I spent about two years fleshing out color illustrations, historical ruminations, and other odd bits and pieces, of the past history of Star Fleet as pictured in the FRS. All that was done over at the FRS website. Some of it is still posted online at my Photobucket site, and you are welcome to take a look at what's there if you like:

http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n167/aridas_sofia/trek/?start=all

Well, I've only given it a quick glance so far, but I guess I know what site I'll spend most of my weekend checking out now.

Mark

 

[Kinnison]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

aridas sofia said:

Aridas, do you have a website with your newer work on it?

I had FederationReference.com, and still own the domain, but differences with the site developer led to the site coming down. I'd be willing to participate in an FRS site again, but my time is stretched too thin right now to get into building what I'd build if I were going to do it myself.

I understand that. I don't give my website nearly the attention it deserves.

I'm not used to seeing these things in color, but I like what you've done for the Cygnus thus far.

I spent about two years fleshing out color illustrations, historical ruminations, and other odd bits and pieces, of the past history of Star Fleet as pictured in the FRS. All that was done over at the FRS website. Some of it is still posted online at my Photobucket site, and you are welcome to take a look at what's there if you like:

http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n167/aridas_sofia/trek/?start=all

There's a lot of great work in there. A lot more than can be taken-in in one sitting before work. I, too, will be spending my weekend looking over your photobucket account. I like the cruiser evolution work a lot already!

Does Todd Guenther still post here? I've been gone for a few years, but there was talk of a new SotSF book back then.

I haven't seen Todd post in a long time, and have heard nothing recently form him about a new volume. There was talk of it, and he fleshed out some color illustrations of the Pompey class and its evolution over time, but frankly I think there wasn't enough interest when those things were posted at FRS.com to give him hope an expensive SotSF-style publication would clear costs. I suspect he's moved on to other things.

That's a shame. I think I would have been more enthusiastic about a new SotSF book than I am about the upcoming movie!

 

[Bernard Guignard]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

I Think that I put in my vote to buy a new SotSF book outright when the question was put. A shame that there was not enough interest.

 

[Harry]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

Wow. I've never touched much starship design beyond the TOS era (aztec! curves! headache!), but that Cygnus looks great

One of the things that is indeed open for interpretation is whether refits in the SotSF/FRS-verse are actual structural rebuilds, or simply system upgrades to match the general specifications of another class.

Strangely enough, one of the few variants that aren't given a specific class name are the 2 pilot versions of the Enterprise. Instead, they seem to be just early configurations of the Constitution class?

 

[aridas sofia]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

I figured that each of the original Constitution class starships was a little different. So one might have looked like the AMT model, one might have had the lines of the plan in TMoST, one the three foot model, and so on.

But the differences between the "Cage" and "WNMHGB" details would be in-service upgrades to Enterprise after her refitting (or original construction) in 2245. Sometime after the "Cage" but before Kirk took command, those upgrades were made. After the damage of the "WNMHGB" mission, an overall refit to reflect an upgraded Bonhomme Richard standard was done to prepare the ship for a 5YM.

 

[Bernard Guignard]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

I noticed that the HD version of the Ultimate computer will show slight variations between the four Constitution class ships fighting the Enterprise. One variation that can be plainly seen on the preview pictures is the Lexington having 4 sensors at the front of the saucer as opposed to 3.
I wonder what other variants will show up

 

[Vance]

Re: FJ's Cruiser is to Achernar, as FJ's other ships are to

Cochise Class Destroyer
Concept for the ACE Nacelle, based on Aridas's design