First Doctor's Granddaughter???

[Chaos Descending]

I think the revived series has made it very clear that the term "Time Lord" refers to any and all members of the Doctor's species, not to an elite few Gallifreyans.

And so the Shobogans from "Invasion of Time" are still Time Lords, then?

The fellows from outside the Citadel are not Shobogans. Shobogans are clearly mentioned in The Deadly Assassin as being vandals and hoodlums inside the Citadel. That term is never used in The Invasion of Time. The group of people outside the Citadel in that episode are only ever referred to as "Outsiders", as I recall.

^ But as we know, there are inhabitants on Gallifrey who weren't. The primitives that lived outside the city.

Those that lived outside the Citadel were not "primitives". They were Time Lords who abandoned the Time Lord lifestyle to "return to nature".

 

[Starkers]

Remember the mysterious Woman from The End of Time? The one who appeared to Wilf, and then was forced to cover her face by Rassilon before revealing herself to the Doctor -- thereby giving him the idea of how to cut the link and send the Time Lords and Gallifrey back to the Time War without killing the Master?

RTD has said that he intended for the Woman to be the Doctor's mother. But I don't buy it. My interpretation is different. I'm convinced that the Woman was Susan.

I agree, in spite of what the writer says I think it just has more impact if it's Susan, and I expecially love the incongruity of the daughter seeming much older and wiser than the father, plus it dovetails nicely with the Wilf/Donna relationship. The scene is played so vague though that he might be looking wistfully at Donna, might be looking at Sylvia (hell might even be looking at Donna as Sylvia's daughter rather than Wilf's granddaughter!)

Until something on screen says it's his mum I'm going to continue to think she's susan...

Those that lived outside the Citadel were not "primitives". They were Time Lords who abandoned the Time Lord lifestyle to "return to nature".

Bloody B'aku!

 

[Pauln6]

I too am in favour of Claire Bloom being Susan. I can't see the point of introducing a new character when you have a perfectly good character sitting there waiting for someone to do something with her. Whoever she is I hope Claire Bloom gets the chance to do something with her. I was most disappointed when Derek Jacobi's rather splendid Master gave way to John Sim's pantomime villain too quickly.

Susan was pretty cool, although one has to wonder, since Time Lords live so long and can be resurrected even after death (Master, Rassillon), what happened to the rest of the Doctor's family? Did he flee Gallifrey in the first place because of their deaths? Susan was quite rueful about being on the run and the Time War could have given her a chance to return to the fold.

 

[Orcus]

Gawd... this is just going round and round, isn't it?

 

[Captain Pike]

I was most disappointed when Derek Jacobi's rather splendid Master gave way to John Sim's pantomime villain too quickly.

Tell me about it! One of the most disappointing aspects of the new show...

 

[Australis]

I too believe the woman in EOT2 was Susan. There's a physical resemblance. Here's 2 pics I posted at the time:

Also, when Wilf asks who the woman was, he looks at Wilf, then WIlf's granddaughter, Donna. Not conclusive, but a strong suggestion, to me.

As for Lungbarrow... meh. Just because Marc Platt wrote it, many people go, "ooo, canon!' Well, we know about Who and canon.

 

[Starkers]

I was most disappointed when Derek Jacobi's rather splendid Master gave way to John Sim's pantomime villain too quickly.

Tell me about it! One of the most disappointing aspects of the new show...

I just love the bit where he opens the watch and kindly old man gives way to the dead eyes sociopath!

Least he didn't get time to become rubbish in the role

Also, when Wilf asks who the woman was, he looks at Wilf, then WIlf's granddaughter, Donna. Not conclusive, but a strong suggestion, to me.

He does,but he also patently looks at Sylvia as well. I'd rather it was susan than his mum but both seem as likely.

 

[Sci]

I was most disappointed when Derek Jacobi's rather splendid Master gave way to John Sim's pantomime villain too quickly.

Well, first off, it's Sir Derek Frickin' Jacobi. It's not like he was probably willing to become a recurring guest star; with names like that, you're pretty much working with a one-shot deal.

Secondly -- let's be fair to John Simm, here. For all that he's "pantomime," his Master wasn't the one monologuing to himself, "Killed by an insect! A girl! How embarrassing! If the Doctor can be young and strong, then so can I. The Master: Reborn!" I mean, that's about as panto a set of lines as a villain can be given.

 

[Starkers]

Well the trouble is he had no other characters to bounce off, besides I like the insect line. (He says inappropriate not embarassing by the way )

 

[Sci]

Well the trouble is he had no other characters to bounce off, besides I like the insect line. (He says inappropriate not embarassing by the way )

I like the line, too, but I'm not going to pretend the guy's exactly performing something out of Waiting for Godot or Death of A Salesman. It's pure panto -- fun, but also pure cheese.

And I screwed up the line! How inappropriate!

 

[Captain Pike]

Panto dialogue or not, we still went from veteran actor oozing gravitas and screen presence to Daffy bloody Duck. Simm was shithouse imo.

 

[Starkers]

Simm grew on me, certainly by the time The End of Time came around I deciced I quite liked him. Assuming the Master will return (I'd be surprised if he didn't) then I'd be quite happy if Simm returned.

Although they might want a Master who's a better fit to Smith in the way Simm was a mirror of Tennant, Delgardo a mirror to Pertwee (although I've never understood why the Master has to be similar to the Doctor, get your own life, dude!)

 

[Pauln6]

He was a bit too manic for my taste but then so was Tennant, sometimes so it was definitely the writing. Ecclestone seemed to manage to keep the mania bubbling below the surface, whereas I think Tennant gave in to it a bit more. It's fine, it's good that different Doctors behave differently even with the same writers. I'm just not a fan of manic.

 

[The Lensman]

He does,but he also patently looks at Sylvia as well. I'd rather it was susan than his mum but both seem as likely.

IIRC, the look he gives Sylvia, relative to Wilf and Donna is momentary. If they really wanted to indicate "mother", then his gaze should've just stopped at Sylvia.

If we're going by order of people he looked at, then timelady could just as easily been his daughter...as he looks at Wilf (himself), Syliva (daughter), Donna (Susan).

Also, the Doctors mother seems to goofy to me, takes away some of his mystery, whereas grandchild, and by extension, child, is an established part of things. So, count me in the "until I hear something onscreen, it's Susan" crowd.

Panto dialogue or not, we still went from veteran actor oozing gravitas and screen presence to Daffy bloody Duck. Simm was shithouse imo.

Having read this thread in reverse order, I thought you were refering to going from Eccelston to Tennant!

 

[captcalhoun]

it's his MUM!

SUSAN'S HIS GRAND-DAUGHTER!!!

author intent!

 

[Cutter John]

I always figured the older woman was Romana. It seems appropriate that she'd insist on remaining on as a member of the council after Rassilon deposed her. And if she were anything like the Doctor she'd definitely be a thorn in his side from thereon in. Naturally what we saw was his way of getting back at her.

 

[The]

it's his MUM!

SUSAN'S HIS GRAD-DAUGHTER!!!

author intent!

Then The Doctor should have said that. But, as it was left open intentionally, it is up to the viewer to decide. RTD thinks his mom...I believe it was Susan...some believe it was Romana. The point of leaving it open was so that we can all be right AND wrong at the same time...

Again, I'm not sure what makes you think that the term "Time Lord" only refers to an elite sect of Gallifreyans. There's certainly no evidence that it only refers to the elites in the revived series

And there is forty-two years of history before that you are choosing to ignore. Thus, the merits of the debate fall to those who can accept the entirety of the facts...not just the selected details that support their personal opinion.

Having said that, I believe it is something akin to us. We live on Earth, but call ourselves Human. They live on Gallifrey, but call themselves Time Lords. Make of that what you will...

 

[Skywalker]

Again, I'm not sure what makes you think that the term "Time Lord" only refers to an elite sect of Gallifreyans. There's certainly no evidence that it only refers to the elites in the revived series

And there is forty-two years of history before that you are choosing to ignore. Thus, the merits of the debate fall to those who can accept the entirety of the facts...not just the selected details that support their personal opinion.

Having said that, I believe it is something akin to us. We live on Earth, but call ourselves Human. They live on Gallifrey, but call themselves Time Lords. Make of that what you will...

This is why we should start using Earth's Latin name and call ourselves Terrans.

 

[Count Zero]

Remember the mysterious Woman from The End of Time? The one who appeared to Wilf, and then was forced to cover her face by Rassilon before revealing herself to the Doctor -- thereby giving him the idea of how to cut the link and send the Time Lords and Gallifrey back to the Time War without killing the Master?

RTD has said that he intended for the Woman to be the Doctor's mother. But I don't buy it. My interpretation is different. I'm convinced that the Woman was Susan.

Impossible. That Mystery Woman wasn't in the way, didn't scream like a little girl at every opportunity or nag about every little inconvenience and didn't become incapacitated at the most inopportune moment.

 

[G2309]

I've just bought the first few episodes of series 1. Theres a commentary on the unearthly child, where the actress who plays Susan confirms she was his grandaughter. Apparently though the charachters weren't given much backstory to base their character's off of.