Most likely a combination of new weaponry, tactical info from Picard and also, something the fleet had not been doing before, which was concentrating all their fire to one spot, rather than just firing at whatever part of the cube was easiest.
First contact borg inconsistency?
- Thread starter Hawkeye_90
- Start date
This was a plot point in the movie.
I know, but it was stupid to put someone you believe could be compromised in command of your most technologically advanced assets. If the Borg still had a link, then they know everything you've developed and can prepare accordingly.
I just made a post in another thread about the inconsistecies between the "Q who" Borg and these. This thread made me notice another: in "Q Who" there were no weak points in the Borg cube. Now they invent one. Yas, I know, it was needed to advance the plot, yadda yadda.
I don't like FC.
I don't like FC.
I've just watched it for the first time in a number of years (having a rewatch of the TNG movies - GF has never seen them) and boy has the film dated, still really enjoy it in almost a quaint fashion - the same way I look at TOS which was a surprise, it actually looks like an older film than Generations which I wasn't expecting, the sets on the Enterprise E look positively ugly compared to the D, which is a shame. It's still one of the better Trek films, but I no longer regard it the step up from the previous movie that it was heralded at the time, just different.
With regards to the question - I think it's been answered correctly in the thread already - they've had 8 years to prepare for the Borg and have developed weapons to try and deal with the threat.
With regards to the question - I think it's been answered correctly in the thread already - they've had 8 years to prepare for the Borg and have developed weapons to try and deal with the threat.
although the writer's intent was probably that picard was either using his memory from when he was locutus or something from his partial re-connection to the collective to pick the target, I think that simply concentrating all the ships' fire unto the same spot is what worked. It didn't matter where they concentrated, just that they finally did.
I think what you're noticing here is what's known as a bad script.
The film is so full of holes and none-sense plot lines, it's hopeless to try and wring every inconsistency out of it. First Contact is enjoyable of course thanks to Frakes' direction, the effects, and production design, but as with all TNG films the script is very much below par.
The film is so full of holes and none-sense plot lines, it's hopeless to try and wring every inconsistency out of it. First Contact is enjoyable of course thanks to Frakes' direction, the effects, and production design, but as with all TNG films the script is very much below par.
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Clark Terrell
Lieutenant Commander
Precisely. Picard's prior experience with the Borg made destroying the cube much easier than it would have been otherwise, ironic considering that Starfleet didn't want him to be part of the fleet for that exact reason.
Also note that it's not just a spot that Picard specifies for the attack - it's also a moment. Several starships are destroyed and hundreds or thousands of people die while Picard tells the fleet to wait for it, wait for it, NOW!...
This fits well with what we know of the Borg and their technology. There are no weak spots. Why? Because everything is decentralized and rerouted around damage. The target keeps moving - the bridge is here now, there at the next moment. But if you are part of the Collective, like Locutus is, then you can tell how and when things are moving. And then you can fire smack in the middle of where a weakness will be at the time of impact.
Sure, they thought they had taken Locutus out of Picard. But that would not be consistent: several other episodes show Federation medicine can't remove even much coarser bits of instrumentation from a brain without killing the patient. The Borg nanogoo in this movie causes large metal objects to pop through the skin eventually. Surely it would also be plausible for the unnoticeably thin goo to hide in Picard's blood for a few years, then suddenly assemble into a tiny subspace transceiver somewhere inside him (and again dissolve after no longer needed).
As for "old" weapons still having an effect, it must be a question of magnitude to some degree. The Borg may adapt so that a Drone can shrug off a hand phaser beam, but it doesn't follow that a Drone could then shrug off twenty starship main battery beams of that exact same sort...
OTOH, we have to consider that the Borg don't wear their adaptations all the time. The first few Drones always succumb even to "old" weapons before the Collective decides it's had enough of this and adapts. It's just that the Collective can afford to lose a couple of Drones in every firefight. It can no doubt also afford to lose a few square meters of hull plating for the same noble purpose of finding out more about the enemy weapons and tactics. Except, that is, when there's a Quisling telling the enemy how to fatally exploit the magnanimously donated square meters.
Timo Saloniemi
This fits well with what we know of the Borg and their technology. There are no weak spots. Why? Because everything is decentralized and rerouted around damage. The target keeps moving - the bridge is here now, there at the next moment. But if you are part of the Collective, like Locutus is, then you can tell how and when things are moving. And then you can fire smack in the middle of where a weakness will be at the time of impact.
Sure, they thought they had taken Locutus out of Picard. But that would not be consistent: several other episodes show Federation medicine can't remove even much coarser bits of instrumentation from a brain without killing the patient. The Borg nanogoo in this movie causes large metal objects to pop through the skin eventually. Surely it would also be plausible for the unnoticeably thin goo to hide in Picard's blood for a few years, then suddenly assemble into a tiny subspace transceiver somewhere inside him (and again dissolve after no longer needed).
As for "old" weapons still having an effect, it must be a question of magnitude to some degree. The Borg may adapt so that a Drone can shrug off a hand phaser beam, but it doesn't follow that a Drone could then shrug off twenty starship main battery beams of that exact same sort...
OTOH, we have to consider that the Borg don't wear their adaptations all the time. The first few Drones always succumb even to "old" weapons before the Collective decides it's had enough of this and adapts. It's just that the Collective can afford to lose a couple of Drones in every firefight. It can no doubt also afford to lose a few square meters of hull plating for the same noble purpose of finding out more about the enemy weapons and tactics. Except, that is, when there's a Quisling telling the enemy how to fatally exploit the magnanimously donated square meters.
Timo Saloniemi
Had Wesley been there he'd have said, "Focus Fire.....derrrr..."
Clark Terrell
Lieutenant Commander
I agree and don't understand Starfleet's decision-making at all. Why give Picard a ship if he's not allowed to use it in situations where it could help?
Maybe someone in the admiralty irrationally feared that the Borg would somehow hijack the mind of the liberated drone Picard. Or that Picard's antipathy towards the Borg would compromise his decision-making.
To be fair, I think that the Borg cube in "The Best of Both Worlds" suffered a fair bit of damage at Wolf 359 as well. After all, it seemed to be sitting around and being repaired after destroying the fleet, which gave the Enterprise time to catch up to it (after, coincidentally, the Enterprise was sitting around and being repaired).
I always thought there was an inconsistency between "Q Who" and "The Best of Both Worlds". In "Q Who" it seemed that the Borg cube didn't just become completely immune to weapons fire, but immediately regenerated the hull of the cube upon damage.
The Enterprise-D, or a small group of ships, at the time couldn't hope to do enough damage to by-pass this defense all by themselves. This would mean that a sizable fleet of starships could cause enough up front damage to eventually whittle down a Borg cube, which oddly enough seems to be happening in "First Contact".
The Enterprise-D, or a small group of ships, at the time couldn't hope to do enough damage to by-pass this defense all by themselves. This would mean that a sizable fleet of starships could cause enough up front damage to eventually whittle down a Borg cube, which oddly enough seems to be happening in "First Contact".
A given rate of recovery, pitted against a given rate of inflicting damage, and moderated by the Borg ability to resist, would give a certain outcome naturally enough:
1) In "Q Who?", a single starship could tear a Cube to shreds, because the Cube has not yet assimilated enough knowledge of enemy weaponry to resist it and thus minimize damage. Too bad that Picard stopped short of entirely destroying the Cube, giving it time not only to recover but also to adapt, so that towards the end of the episode, the weapons of a single starship could no longer make a dent.
2) in "BoBW", a fleet of ships fails to inflict enough damage because the Borg have learned how to resist, and their steady rate of repair and recovery thus can deal with this entire fleet's best efforts. There may be a little bit of ebb and flow there, but most of the battle goes unwitnessed by the cameras and the audience, and we only need to know that the rate of destruction never quite outweighed the rate of recovery.
3) by ST:FC, the Borg have not learned much that would be new, though: their ability to withstand Starfleet weapons has plateaued. Starfleet has developed a little bit of extra destructive power, but not much, and again a fleet of ships fails to have much of an impact. Only the ability of Picard to point the fleet towards a fleeting weakness in the ever-shifting structure of the Cube allows Starfleet to momentarily overcome the Borg repair rate and thus destroy the Cube.
Timo Saloniemi
1) In "Q Who?", a single starship could tear a Cube to shreds, because the Cube has not yet assimilated enough knowledge of enemy weaponry to resist it and thus minimize damage. Too bad that Picard stopped short of entirely destroying the Cube, giving it time not only to recover but also to adapt, so that towards the end of the episode, the weapons of a single starship could no longer make a dent.
2) in "BoBW", a fleet of ships fails to inflict enough damage because the Borg have learned how to resist, and their steady rate of repair and recovery thus can deal with this entire fleet's best efforts. There may be a little bit of ebb and flow there, but most of the battle goes unwitnessed by the cameras and the audience, and we only need to know that the rate of destruction never quite outweighed the rate of recovery.
3) by ST:FC, the Borg have not learned much that would be new, though: their ability to withstand Starfleet weapons has plateaued. Starfleet has developed a little bit of extra destructive power, but not much, and again a fleet of ships fails to have much of an impact. Only the ability of Picard to point the fleet towards a fleeting weakness in the ever-shifting structure of the Cube allows Starfleet to momentarily overcome the Borg repair rate and thus destroy the Cube.
Timo Saloniemi
IIRC the Borg cube in ST VIII was quite a different type than the one we'd seen in "Q Who" and BoBW (of which Starfleet had plenty of footage for analysis for Picard to comment upon).
The one in ST VIII was a different type and nobody at Starfleet probably had intel how to properly deal with it. Picard, OTOH, might have retained subconscious knowledge about this different type and therefore knew instinctively its weak point.
Just a thought, I'm not a big fan of this film either (and that's not because of the XXXXXXXXXX-X).
Bob
The one in ST VIII was a different type and nobody at Starfleet probably had intel how to properly deal with it. Picard, OTOH, might have retained subconscious knowledge about this different type and therefore knew instinctively its weak point.
Just a thought, I'm not a big fan of this film either (and that's not because of the XXXXXXXXXX-X).
Bob
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