Firefly is a prequel to Dune

[JRoss]

I've been saying this for years, but I've never discussed it here. Firefly is the far past of the Dune universe. Here's why:

The Earth That Was: In Dune, Earth has been destroyed/forgotten, just like Earth is no longer habitable by the time of Firefly. Since Dune takes place 16,000 years in our future, we can easily see it's location being forgotten.

No Aliens: There are no aliens in either 'verse. All the non-human species in Dune were created by man.

Inara the Bene Gesserit: Inara's Buddhism/Hinduism aesthetic and philosophy meshes well with the practitioners of Prana Bindu. Like her group becomes or merges with other groups to become the Witches.

Shepherd Book's Religion: He's not reading the Christian Bible. I can't recall which episode, but there's at least one where they quote "The Book" with something that's not present in the Bible. In Dune, the various religions have merged, we have Buddislam, a fusion of Catholicism and Protestantism, what might be Hinduism/Christianity and probably others.

Lasguns: The laser weapon we see in Firefly is mentioned as being a rarity. Lasguns in Dune aren't used very often because of the reaction when they hit shields.

Cultural Synthesis: Firefly features an Anglo/Sino combined culture, plus who knows which others exist. In Dune there's all sorts of that. The ruling government resembles a combination of the Holy Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire.

River: Experiments produce in River something that resembles the enhanced capabilities of the Bene Gesserit, the mind of a Mentat or Guild Navigator, the psychic powers of a Bene Gesserit or the Kwisatz Haderach. She's imperfect, which means that there's room to improve in the next 15,500 years.

Suk Doctors: There are social castes, and doctors have special training and conditioning in both 'verses, as we see in Simon's case.

Nobility: Noble titles and positions exist in both 'verses.

I'm not counting those other "Dune" books.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

No

 

[bbjeg]

It's a clever theory but with a 15,000 year gap, any series could be the past to Dune.

 

[Reverend]

It's a clever theory but with a 15,000 year gap, any series could be the past to Dune.

^This, pretty much.

It's basically the same logic as saying Star Wars is a prequel to...well just about everything.

 

[JRoss]

Wow, Santa, pretty well-thought argument. Obviously, I don't believe that Joss Whedon intended this, and I realize that "anything could be anything", but I like making these "fiction chains".

I've got one that people seem to like; it's about how Pinky and the Brain are two mice who didn't escape with the Rats of NIMH, and also are from labs related to the work that uplifted Caesar and his mates. The rats and other uplifts ended up surviving the degeneracy of Man and established various societies.

The Apes took over America. Martin Brisby and a group eventually left America for Europe, landed in Britain, and established Lockwood and its surrounding towns. The apes and larger animals eventually took to the stars and colonized the Lylat system and other areas of space, which led to a peaceful society until the Toad Empire broke away.

 

[DWF]

The first Dune book takes place in the year 10,191 which isn't 16,000 years in our future for starters.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And, IIRC, Earth of the Dune universe is uninhabitable because it was deliberately destroyed with atomic weapons. Firefly's Earth was abandoned, but not destroyed, because of environmental catastrophe.

 

[Avon]

blakes 7 is a prequel to dune.

 

[JoeZhang]

It's a clever theory but with a 15,000 year gap, any series could be the past to Dune.

Except that series by his son.

 

[Timewalker]

I've been saying this for years, but I've never discussed it here. Firefly is the far past of the Dune universe. Here's why:

The Earth That Was: In Dune, Earth has been destroyed/forgotten, just like Earth is no longer habitable by the time of Firefly. Since Dune takes place 16,000 years in our future, we can easily see it's location being forgotten.

No Aliens: There are no aliens in either 'verse. All the non-human species in Dune were created by man.

Inara the Bene Gesserit: Inara's Buddhism/Hinduism aesthetic and philosophy meshes well with the practitioners of Prana Bindu. Like her group becomes or merges with other groups to become the Witches.

Shepherd Book's Religion: He's not reading the Christian Bible. I can't recall which episode, but there's at least one where they quote "The Book" with something that's not present in the Bible. In Dune, the various religions have merged, we have Buddislam, a fusion of Catholicism and Protestantism, what might be Hinduism/Christianity and probably others.

Lasguns: The laser weapon we see in Firefly is mentioned as being a rarity. Lasguns in Dune aren't used very often because of the reaction when they hit shields.

Cultural Synthesis: Firefly features an Anglo/Sino combined culture, plus who knows which others exist. In Dune there's all sorts of that. The ruling government resembles a combination of the Holy Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire.

River: Experiments produce in River something that resembles the enhanced capabilities of the Bene Gesserit, the mind of a Mentat or Guild Navigator, the psychic powers of a Bene Gesserit or the Kwisatz Haderach. She's imperfect, which means that there's room to improve in the next 15,500 years.

Suk Doctors: There are social castes, and doctors have special training and conditioning in both 'verses, as we see in Simon's case.

Nobility: Noble titles and positions exist in both 'verses.

I'm not counting those other "Dune" books.

Whut?

This is utter nonsense. There is nothing in either real Dune (anything written by Frank Herbert) or nuDune (the KJA/BH garbage) or the Dune Encyclopedia (by Dr. Willis McNelly, with Frank Herbert's approval) that would support this.

First of all, Dune does not take place 16,000 years in our future (I assume you mean the events of Dune itself). The way the Imperial calendar works is that "year 0" is based on the Guild's discovery and implementation of fold-space technology. The events of Dune take place 10,191 years after this (B.G = Before Guild; A.G. = After Guild). Dune is at least 20,000 years in our future.

In the Imperium, Earth may be largely forgotten by most people but not by everyone. The Bene Gesserit preserve history in both Other Memory and also with whatever specific artifacts that have been saved (ie. the painting mentioned in Heretics/Chapterhouse Dune). But not knowing where Earth is/was? Come on! One of the planets mentioned in Dune is Ecaz - orbiting Alpha Centauri B, only 4.something light-years from here! Arrakis orbits Canopus - which we can easily see from Earth. It's not like a lot of the places where most of the action in this series happens are really far away, especially with spacefolding technology.

So what if there aren't any aliens in either series? Lots of SF series have no aliens. It doesn't mean they're all related to either Dune or Firefly.

If I understand correctly, Inara is basically a self-employed member of a "guild of geishas" (if there's a proper term for this I don't recall). Whatever religious beliefs Inara may have, the Bene Gesserit is not a religious order. They are adept at manipulating religions and religious movements to further their own political and genetic purposes, which is why the Fremen have Reverend Mothers and a Kwisatz Haderach-themed prophecy.

Religion-wise, the prevailing religious book in the Imperium is the Orange Catholic Bible. The most important religious taboo is against computers and thinking machines: "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man's mind." Computers and other forms of artificial intelligence are not only illegal, they are anathema. They are considered profane.

River's original intelligence would probably have qualified her for Mentat training. But the damage to her mind from the experiments would have rendered her a liability, and the BG would have had her killed.

Nobility? Aristocracies and social castes, etc. exist in many SF milieu.

Finally, I have to wonder: Have you read this crossover story, and if so, is this where your ideas come from? https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9322563/1/Fire-and-Spice-A-FireflyDune-Crossover

And, IIRC, Earth of the Dune universe is uninhabitable because it was deliberately destroyed with atomic weapons. Firefly's Earth was abandoned, but not destroyed, because of environmental catastrophe.

According to the abomination that is the nuDune chronology. Frank Herbert's chronology includes a convocation of various religious groups convening on an island on Earth to work out how to harmonize the various religions, the writing of the Orange Catholic Bible, and exactly what is merely taboo and what is absolutely forbidden, following the conclusion of the Butlerian Jihad.

Kinda hard to have a conference in Hawaii if the planet is completely destroyed...

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Jesus, people, please don't give Pinky and the Brian more ideas for crappy prequels.

I did wonder if the big bad in the 'Verse was going to turn out to be an AI (blue hands) or aliens (maybe the pickled freak show exhibit was real) rather than just human control freakery.

 

[JRoss]

Okay, tl; dr on a lot of what you wrote, but the Guild did their thing "6,000 years after mankind harnessed the power of the atom", or something to that effect, IIRC from the first book's appendix. We harnessed the power of the atom in the last century. So 6,000 years after that the Guild forms. Then 10,000 years later, Paul is born. And in the real Dune series they don't say what happened to Earth.

Lastly, lol at the hate. Sensitive much? What's wrong with making fun fan theories?

 

[JRoss]

Timewalker, I think you may have misunderstood me, I did not mean that Inara is a BG, but that her order of high-class prostitutes with a mystical bent and influence among the elite could be a precursor to or one of the groups that could merge to become the BG.

No, I have not read any Dune or Firefly fan fiction, except for three of the Brian Herbert books.

I did not say that River is a Mentat. Folks are experimenting in the Firefly universe. River is a failure. In a few thousand years maybe they could perfect the art.

The BG use of words like Prana Bindu is a clear reference to ascetic disciplines like yoga, which has a religious basis. Their insistence that conception must be an act of love is illogical, and smacks of a dogma.

 

[RoJoHen]

And, IIRC, Earth of the Dune universe is uninhabitable because it was deliberately destroyed with atomic weapons. Firefly's Earth was abandoned, but not destroyed, because of environmental catastrophe.

Well, we are talking about thousands of years of passing between Firefly and Dune. History could have been misremembered.

 

[Kemaiku]

And, IIRC, Earth of the Dune universe is uninhabitable because it was deliberately destroyed with atomic weapons. Firefly's Earth was abandoned, but not destroyed, because of environmental catastrophe.

Well, we are talking about thousands of years of passing between Firefly and Dune. History could have been misremembered.

Except Serenity shows us in a flashback the great exodus from Earth of the early settlers, the planet being a heavily polluted mess but intact behind them.

 

[JRoss]

Earth was intact in the Dune Universe by that point. Firefly is only a few centuries from now.

 

[Timewalker]

Timewalker, I think you may have misunderstood me, I did not mean that Inara is a BG, but that her order of high-class prostitutes with a mystical bent and influence among the elite could be a precursor to or one of the groups that could merge to become the BG.

No, I have not read any Dune or Firefly fan fiction, except for three of the Brian Herbert books.

I did not say that River is a Mentat. Folks are experimenting in the Firefly universe. River is a failure. In a few thousand years maybe they could perfect the art.

The BG use of words like Prana Bindu is a clear reference to ascetic disciplines like yoga, which has a religious basis. Their insistence that conception must be an act of love is illogical, and smacks of a dogma.

I know Inara isn't Bene Gesserit. I concede that a part of what she does could be a part of Bene Gesserit training, since they have an extensive curriculum of teaching their acolytes about sex, seduction, and how to manipulate people. BG members such as Lady Jessica and Margot, Lady Fenring are two who were trained in the arts of seduction, with the objective of bearing female children fathered by the designated men.

The Bene Gesserit may be organized along what we would think of as religion-based since they use such terms as "Reverend Mother" and consider each other sisters, newcomers and young girls are acolytes, and so on. But one core part of BG training is even though they have vast knowledge about religion, they don't allow themselves to be distracted by it or get caught up in anything that doesn't serve the ultimate BG goal.

And, IIRC, Earth of the Dune universe is uninhabitable because it was deliberately destroyed with atomic weapons. Firefly's Earth was abandoned, but not destroyed, because of environmental catastrophe.

Well, we are talking about thousands of years of passing between Firefly and Dune. History could have been misremembered.

Which version of Dune are you talking about? The real one that Frank Herbert wrote, or the retconned stuff KJA/BH wrote? There is no way to reconcile them. Earth cannot both have been destroyed and not destroyed in the Butlerian Jihad.

 

[RoJoHen]

Which version of Dune are you talking about? The real one that Frank Herbert wrote, or the retconned stuff KJA/BH wrote? There is no way to reconcile them. Earth cannot both have been destroyed and not destroyed in the Butlerian Jihad.

I don't know anything about Dune. I'm just trying to help!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

According to the abomination that is the nuDune chronology. Frank Herbert's chronology includes a convocation of various religious groups convening on an island on Earth to work out how to harmonize the various religions, the writing of the Orange Catholic Bible, and exactly what is merely taboo and what is absolutely forbidden, following the conclusion of the Butlerian Jihad.

Kinda hard to have a conference in Hawaii if the planet is completely destroyed...

That happened later, during the war against the machines. Earth was destroyed so that its local version of 'Omnius' could be taken out.

 

[Timewalker]

According to the abomination that is the nuDune chronology. Frank Herbert's chronology includes a convocation of various religious groups convening on an island on Earth to work out how to harmonize the various religions, the writing of the Orange Catholic Bible, and exactly what is merely taboo and what is absolutely forbidden, following the conclusion of the Butlerian Jihad.

Kinda hard to have a conference in Hawaii if the planet is completely destroyed...

That happened later, during the war against the machines. Earth was destroyed so that its local version of 'Omnius' could be taken out.

Oh. Please.

The Commission of Ecumenical Translators met on Earth - the appendices in the back of Dune makes it pretty clear that they met on Hawaii - after the Butlerian Jihad. This is 100% incompatible with the drivel written by KJA/BH.

Please don't try to tell me that on an Earth that was 100% controlled by Omnius, Erasmus, and the Titans, a bunch of religious authorities got together and rewrote the Bible to include proscriptions against computers and thinking machines.