*FINALLY* I've finished Buffy, let's dish a little.

[DS9Continuing]

However, what really bothers me, is that Willow added that same happiness clause both times when she re-ensouled Angel. I can accept that the first time she did it, back in Becoming, that she simply wasn't comfortable modifying the curse.

Well, it was her first big spell, and it was the only one anybody knew of that could do the job, and they were under a pretty tight time crunch, and Willow had to be possessed by some outside force to carry it off anyway. All of which suggests to me that they just had to go with what they knew worked, and not worry about the small print.

But five years later in Orpheus she really should have done the poor vampire a favour and allowed him to have sex without worrying that he might end the world.

I'll give you that one, as regards Willow. But maybe she still didn't know any other spells at that point. (We never saw Spike explain to the others how he got his.) Maybe she does but she daren't go any bigger because of her own insecurities (a problem in Buffy Willow rather than in Angel Willow). Maybe the writers just hoped no-one would notice that.

Plus, as Dream points out, the curse is not about sex, it's about happiness. In "Surprise" it was the act of making love with a woman he loved and who loved him back, not sex per se. In "Awakening" it was beating the bad guy, seeing all his friends come back together, being forgiven by his son and his girlfriend, being the big damn hero and then making love to a woman he loved that did the trick. Just the good old in-and-out won't cut it. Granted, the characters themselves gloss over that just as badly as anyone, but that's how it works.

But Willow by the time of Orpheus is a powerful witch recasting her first-ever spell, so perhaps she can add a little more oomph this time.

True - post "Orpheus" we never had a situation where Angel was in danger of losing his soul. Maybe the loophole is gone and we just never had cause to find that out.

.

 

[sonak]

um, no. You just don't design a curse with that kind of "loophole."

What don't you understand about the word "accidental"? I just explained how it was not a part of the design, it was an accident. Think of it as an unintended (and possibly unavoidable) side-effect of the act of forcing a soul into a reanimated dead body. It doesn't belong there - the body is dead - and it doesn't take much for it to lose hold.

.

It's never said to be accidental, in fact, Jenny's uncle knows all about it and what will happen. How is that accidental?

I mean, yes Angel's loss of his soul WAS an accident because neither he nor Buffy knew what would happen of course, but the "true happiness" clause was a part of the curse from the beginning, and has nothing to do with ensouling Angel.

(Spike has no such clause, for example. Clearly it's not a necessary side effect of the magic involved in ensouling a vampire.)

 

[DS9Continuing]

We don't know that the Kalderash knew about the "perfect happiness" clause at the time they did the spell 200 years ago. Yes, they knew about it by the time of "Surprise," but maybe they were like Willow at the time - in a rush, fueled by anger, not concerned with looking at the finer details. Maybe they only found out about it later, and that's when they decided they ought to send somebody to keep an eye on him - Jenny.

Until whatever happened to Spike in "Grave," this spell is the only one ever known to be able to re-ensoul a vampire. Even if they did know about the clause in advance, that still might not have stopped them from doing it. Maybe they thought the chances of it happening were so remote as to be worth the calculated risk. Maybe they just didn't know any other way of doing it, and had to take the bad with the good (so to speak). They're only low-level gypsy magic workers, after all, not a massive uber-witch like Willow or an ancient African demon like the one in "Grave."

All I'm saying is, I think it's tremendously unlikely that anyone (in-universe) sat down and said, "Let's work this spell that has a really obvious flaw in it even though that flaw could ruin the entire point of doing the spell." If they had, I'd agree with you that it was a really dumb idea. But I don't think they did.

The one that makes no sense to me is Buffy substituting herself for Dawn in Glory's big Keyhole. I can't come up with any logical rationalisation for that at all.

.

 

[Kelthaz]

But five years later in Orpheus she really should have done the poor vampire a favour and allowed him to have sex without worrying that he might end the world.

He CAN have sex without losing his soul. It is just needs to be without the whole true love thing.

I did say "worry" and "might". Angel didn't lose his soul when he had sex with Darla or Nina, but it's still a concern.

 

[DigificWriter]

The one that makes no sense to me is Buffy substituting herself for Dawn in Glory's big Keyhole. I can't come up with any logical rationalisation for that at all.

.

I don't see how you can be confused about this. Blood Ties made it pretty clear that Dawn was made from Buffy's blood and is/was therefore basically a genetic clone of her.

 

[sonak]

We don't know that the Kalderash knew about the "perfect happiness" clause at the time they did the spell 200 years ago. Yes, they knew about it by the time of "Surprise," but maybe they were like Willow at the time - in a rush, fueled by anger, not concerned with looking at the finer details. Maybe they only found out about it later, and that's when they decided they ought to send somebody to keep an eye on him - Jenny.

Until whatever happened to Spike in "Grave," this spell is the only one ever known to be able to re-ensoul a vampire. Even if they did know about the clause in advance, that still might not have stopped them from doing it. Maybe they thought the chances of it happening were so remote as to be worth the calculated risk. Maybe they just didn't know any other way of doing it, and had to take the bad with the good (so to speak). They're only low-level gypsy magic workers, after all, not a massive uber-witch like Willow or an ancient African demon like the one in "Grave."

All I'm saying is, I think it's tremendously unlikely that anyone (in-universe) sat down and said, "Let's work this spell that has a really obvious flaw in it even though that flaw could ruin the entire point of doing the spell." If they had, I'd agree with you that it was a really dumb idea. But I don't think they did.

The one that makes no sense to me is Buffy substituting herself for Dawn in Glory's big Keyhole. I can't come up with any logical rationalisation for that at all.

.

Ah, so in other words you were just speculating based on nothing revealed in the episode that the "true happiness" clause was an accident. I'll just go with the "it was a stupid idea necessary for the plot" explanation.

 

[DS9Continuing]

The one that makes no sense to me is Buffy substituting herself for Dawn in Glory's big Keyhole. I can't come up with any logical rationalisation for that at all.

I don't see how you can be confused about this. Blood Ties made it pretty clear that Dawn was made from Buffy's blood and is/was therefore basically a genetic clone of her.

The given blurb was, "The blood flows, the portal opens. When the blood stops (when she's dead), the portal closes." Well, Dawn never stopped bleeding and never died. And Buffy never started bleeding. So how did the portal "know" their blood was the same? And Dawn's blood was only important because she was the Key. Buffy wasn't the Key, she was just the template they made Dawn's human aspect from. But Dawn's human aspect wasn't what mattered. Her mystical aspect was what mattered. And Buffy didn't have that mystical aspect (or at least not the same mystical aspect).

Ah, so in other words you were just speculating based on nothing revealed in the episode that the "true happiness" clause was an accident. I'll just go with the "it was a stupid idea necessary for the plot" explanation.

Well, my speculation allows the story to make sense. Yours doesn't. So ner ner ner.

.

 

[RoJoHen]

The one that makes no sense to me is Buffy substituting herself for Dawn in Glory's big Keyhole. I can't come up with any logical rationalisation for that at all.

I don't see how you can be confused about this. Blood Ties made it pretty clear that Dawn was made from Buffy's blood and is/was therefore basically a genetic clone of her.

The given blurb was, "The blood flows, the portal opens. When the blood stops (when she's dead), the portal closes." Well, Dawn never stopped bleeding and never died. And Buffy never started bleeding. So how did the portal "know" their blood was the same? And Dawn's blood was only important because she was the Key. Buffy wasn't the Key, she was just the template they made Dawn's human aspect from. But Dawn's human aspect wasn't what mattered. Her mystical aspect was what mattered. And Buffy didn't have that mystical aspect (or at least not the same mystical aspect).

I kind of got the impression that the portal didn't really need all of Dawn's blood. The blood opened the door because of The Key's mystical energy, and the blood kept the door open while it dripped out of Dawn's body, but once she was moved out of the way and Buffy stepped in, the portal simply couldn't maintain itself.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

And if anything Spike and Angel were superior examples of vampires. One problem I have with Buffy overall is how defanged the vampires are, they're the disposable footsoldiers of the demon world seemingly, if anything Angel and Spike are atypical, aside from a few other examples most vamps we encounter are easily dispatched idiots.

I wonder if Angelus would have survived nearly so long had he not had Darla to look after him. Ditto for Spike hooking up with Drusilla, Angelus, & Darla.

Better stated: There was never a time on the show when any of the other characters would have been able to take down Buffy or Angel.

But that's true of every single action show. The main character is always the strongest character in the cast. I can't even think of a single exception to that rule.

Teal'c could probably take down Jack O'Neill or Col. Mitchell. Dittor for Ronan Dex.

um, no. You just don't design a curse with that kind of "loophole."

What don't you understand about the word "accidental"? I just explained how it was not a part of the design, it was an accident. Think of it as an unintended (and possibly unavoidable) side-effect of the act of forcing a soul into a reanimated dead body. It doesn't belong there - the body is dead - and it doesn't take much for it to lose hold.

I like it. That actually makes sense in a way that that curse never did to me before.

But Willow by the time of Orpheus is a powerful witch recasting her first-ever spell, so perhaps she can add a little more oomph this time.

Perhaps truly avoiding that loophole would involve intense study & research to completely rewrite the spell, something which Willow still didn't have time for in "Orpheus" because she needed to get back to Sunnydale ASAP to help Buffy. Plus, they were concerned about Angelus escaping, finding out who the Beast's master was, and Faith being in a mystical coma thanks to the Orpheus drug.

True - post "Orpheus" we never had a situation where Angel was in danger of losing his soul. Maybe the loophole is gone and we just never had cause to find that out.

Nina seemed slightly concerned about it in "Power Play," though she made a joke about it.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

It's never said to be accidental, in fact, Jenny's uncle knows all about it and what will happen. How is that accidental?

Maybe it's like a plumber who is familiar with the typical weaknesses of an otherwise usually reliable pipe. "Yeah, them X35Ks can start leakin' if the weather gets real cold for a spell."

Spike has no such clause, for example. Clearly it's not a necessary side effect of the magic involved in ensouling a vampire.

Could Spike ever be perfectly happy? He's an emo-poet for godsake!

The one that makes no sense to me is Buffy substituting herself for Dawn in Glory's big Keyhole.

Which I think we should call the "Glory-hole" for short!

 

[Kelthaz]

Teal'c could probably take down Jack O'Neill or Col. Mitchell. Dittor for Ronan Dex.

Right, and Spock could take down Kirk. Riker, Kira, Chakotay, and T'Pol could probably take down their captains too. But I wouldn't classify Stargate or Star Trek as action shows.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I dunno. LOTS of stuff blows up on Stargate.

 

[Kelthaz]

Yeah, but not nearly enough. You can never have too much stuff blowing up.

Buffy's primary strength is her ability to run around and beat the shit out of things with her fists. She doesn't command a powerful starship or solve problems by leading men into battle with fancy laser guns. She walks up to the scary demon thing and punches it in the face. Can you imagine watching Conan the Barbarian or John McClane where his funny sidekick kicks more ass than he does? I don't want to see the Mac dude outclass John McClane and neither does anyone else.

 

[DS9Continuing]

The one that makes no sense to me is Buffy substituting herself for Dawn in Glory's big Keyhole.

Which I think we should call the "Glory-hole" for short!

I applaud you, sir.

Buffy's primary strength is her ability to run around and beat the shit out of things with her fists. She doesn't command a powerful starship or solve problems by leading men into battle with fancy laser guns. She walks up to the scary demon thing and punches it in the face.

Weeelllll.... there is that aspect to it, certainly. But I think that's selling her short. Many times she's the one to actually solve the problem with thinking, not just punching. Willow has the book smarts, Giles has the ancient knowledge, Xander has the devils-be-damned balls, and Buffy has the fists, yes. But she also has a sideways thinking ability that is often the solution to the situation they find themselves in. She's the one who comes up with the plans more often than not, and not just because she's the Slayer, but because she's Buffy. Plus, she's usually smart enough to take advice and rely on other people knowing stuff (until season 7 at least, anyway). She knows enough to know she doesn't know everything, and that's an admirable quality.

And then she punches it.

.

 

[DevilEyes]

**SPOILERS if you haven't seen Buffy yet, BEWARE**

Years in the making, accelerated by feverish insomnia, I finally finished a complete first watch of Buffy.

However, this has meant years of avoiding threads on Buffy lest I be spoiled if I eventually did watch. I dismissed it pretty much outright when it originally aired only starting to get some interest when I started watching Angel, which I didn't start until season 4.

It's been interesting, I always heard about Buffy/Angel so I had no idea Spike had as big of a part as he did. His relationship with Buffy was really interesting and complicated not to mention twisted. Angel was cursed with a soul but Spike fought for one out of love. The chip was a rather brilliant way to bring him into the fold. Even his (albeit temporary) departure was great, "I love you."/"No you don't but thanks for saying it.".

Watching it now you can see how Buffy came in on the early internet tech wave. The computers become more ubiquitous as it goes on. In the final season, we even see Buffy with a cell phone (I don't think we saw this earlier). Giles bitches that the new library needs more books and less computers.

Also, watching it now it's funny to see Wayne Palmer and Mal Reynolds in the Buffyverse. Hey is that Felicia Day among the potentials?


I have a couple of questions though:

1) How controversial (or not) was Willow's coming out? It's probably rather tame, maybe even quaint now, but how was this received in the day?

2) How did people react to the fate of Anya. I was suprised to see he pulled a

Spoiler: Firefly

Wash

beforehand. I get that real life is like that sometimes but I don't think I'm crazy about it on TV. I suppose that "unsettling" feeling is the point, whatever.

3) And this is a big one, what's up with season 6? It almost feels like a spoiled petulant child who got bored with his toys and decides to break them all. Did anything happen behind the scenes to trigger this? Was SMG supposed to leave? Was it just a natural progression for the writers/creators? Just curious, it wasn't all bad but it seemed like pin after pin after pin into the voodoo dolls. If it was supposed to be part of Buffy's mindset or whatever why drag in parties like Xander and Anya, for example, or is that supposed to be like a full-on allegory for falling into depression? Even the fun episodes like Once More With Feeling could be seen as a piss-take on the show.

ETA: 4) Also, did anyone feel like Tara got treated like a Willow prop? Seemed the girl only existed to say sweet things and only in the presence of Willow. Only towards the end did she get to do harmless things with Dawn like watch movies and have snacks. Her final fate just seals the deal.

1) No idea, I didn't watch the show at the time.

2) No idea, for the same reason, but what I do know is that Joss wanted to kill someone off in a casual way, without a great death scene, in order to drive the point that death is random and people don't normally get great death scenes like Buffy in The Gift or Spike in Chosen.

3) No, it was not about anything behind the scenes, and SMG didn't intend to leave. (She only decided to leave in season 7.) I don't believe they would have done season 6 that way if they didn't have another season, it works because all the character stories and relationships get a payoff in season 7 (even though I think season 7 is much weaker than season 6, apart from a few things like the development of Buffy/Spike relationship).

Season 6 was what Joss and Marti Noxon and other ME writers wanted to do - they defined it as a season as one where "Life is the Big Bad". It was meant to be about the hardship of growing up and wrong choices you make in your 20s, about depression and dark periods of your life, abusive and dysfunctional relationships, etc. The Dark Willow plot was something Joss wanted to do for years - it was planned at least since early season 5 (in some of the drafts, Willow would go dark after Glory killed Tara) and it has been mentioned that Joss would have done the same story if Oz had remained on the show as Willow's boyfriend - only it would have been Oz who died to make Willow go dark and vengeful.

I think season 6 was brilliant, edgy and daring and complex and full of ambiguities - they really pushed the envelope; it's my favorite season (with 5 and 2 following closely) and if you go back and rewatch the show*, there's lots of foreshadowing for season 6 developments: Willow's tendency to use magic irresponsibly to make things easier for herself (Lovers Walk, Something Blue) and the episode When She Was Bad (season 2 opener, written by Joss) in which Buffy is suffering from PTSD after her temporary death in the season 1 finale and lashing out at everyone, feels like real foreshadowing for her depression in season 6 after her second resurrection. Season 6 may also feel like a continuation of the Buffy/Faith storyline - Faith was her dark mirror and they were contrasted with Buffy being the 'good girl', well-adjusted one, and Faith being out of control, self-loathing and 'bad girl', and in season 6 we see Buffy nearly falling apart - her breakdown when she's beating up Spike in Dead Things while projecting her own self-loathing on him (shouting things that she really felt about herself - "You're dead inside! You can't feel anything real!") is very similar (and was meant to be) to Faith's breakdown in season 4 Who Are You? (the body-swap episode) when she's beating up Buffy-in-Faith's body (or rather, beating her own body, as a proxy of herself) and shouting "You're disgusting! Murderous bitch! You're nothing!"

Season 6 was intentionally more adult and down to earth than the previous seasons - and I think it was a brilliant move to use the Trio as the villains (the Little Bad, if Willow is the Big Bad) of season 6. When there's a vampire king or a hell god to fight, you can forget your own problems, but what do you do when there's no big apocalyptic threat and your nemesises are, well, kind of lame? The nerd trio work so well as parallels to our heroes: it's just three high school outcasts who suck at real life and can't manage to have a successful relationship (remind you of anyone else in season 6?). There are lots of similarities between Warren and Willow, even though he's a misogynist and all about tech and trying to be manly, while she's all about woman power and magic: they are both former high school nerds who got bullied and have deep, deep insecurities and an obsession with power that comes from wanting to make up for being so put down in the past, and they both violate and mind-rape their girlfriends to keep them from leaving/get them back, and aren't even able to understand how wrong that is. There are also parallels between Warren's relationship with Katrina and the Buffy/Spike relationship, both as Spike = Warren and Buffy = Katrina and as Buffy = Warren and Spike = Katrina (Dead Things play with that a lot, and then there's Seeing Red which has Spike and Warren going into the opposite moral directions as the vampire does something awful to the woman he loves and decides to go and fight for his soul so he could be a better man, while Warren, after having tried to rape Katrina and killed her, and after being thwarted in his villain attempts by Buffy, decides to become even more of a villain and takes the gun to commit a murder).

Season 6 is really uncomfortable (for some this is bad; for me, it's great) because we get to see all the dark, messed up, unpleasant characteristics of our favorite characters - and not in the "they feel guilty and have a dark past/are going through a dark phase, oh that it so romantic/cool" but in a really raw, ugly way (only Tara doesn't do anything wrong); it all hits really close to home; the main villains of the season (the Trio, specifically Warren, and Willow) are humans rather than demons; and the most shocking and heartbreaking moment that tears everything apart is done by a human being with a gun - nothing supernatural about it. Seasons 1-3 were built on the metaphor of "high school as hell"; season 6 is about "real life as the Big Bad" and, as in The Body, nothing supernatural comes close to the horror of real life.

Here's what Joss said about it in an interview:

Q : What do you have to say to the people who complain about the final seasons of Buffy, who don’t get season 6 ?

Whedon : Sorry. We do the best we can. We do what we think is right. Sometimes we sway too far one way, sometimes too far another. Season 6 was incredibly dark and that happens. I know that people said that Sarah complained ; there were times where she said, ‘I feel lost.’ That’s what we were going for, and eventually we realized that we had taken Buffy away from people, and they’re not going to accept it. There were some members of the audience who had trouble with it and that I understand and that I respect, but that’s where I thought the story had to go. When I started to feel it, I brought her back. The funny thing was that Sarah asked to talk to Marti [Noxon] and had a conversation with her at the end of the season and said, ‘Now I feel like we’re starting to miss the point, we’re starting to miss the idea of the strong girl going to the dark side of what power is.’ I was astonished because I had the exact same conversation with her the day before.


Q : It’s funny because season 6 is neck and neck with season 2 as my favorite season.


Whedon : I love season 6. It’s really important. But it was a very stark thing to do. It wasn’t just putting Buffy in a very bad, abusive, weird relationship, it was some sort of an end to magic. For me because childhood is so rich with metaphor, a lot of it had to do with leaving that behind. Instead of a bigger than life villain, we had the nerd troika. Instead of drinking blood and doing spells as sexual metaphor, we had sex. Things became very literal and they lost some of their loveliness. I still think that a lot of the best episodes we ever did were in season 6. I don’t agree with the detractors, but I understand it. And I respect it. Everybody has their opinions. There are people out there who love it very much. But as I’ve learned from my latest arc on the X-Men, you can’t please everybody all the time.

http://www.whedon.info/Joss-Whedon-About-Buffy-Tv-Series.html

4) Hmmm... Maybe to an extent, but I think she did start to show more personality in season 6 (and had her own story in Family)... I'd say she was as much of a prop as Oz was. But overall I was not as taken by Tara as some fans are, she was a little too saintly for my taste.

* which I've been doing, albeit very slowly due to real life business and stuff - shameless self-promotion moment: take a look at my rewatch thread linked in my signature, I'm in season 3 now and I'm just about to post a review of Amends.

 

[DevilEyes]

Willow's turning gay (for that's what it was, not "coming out") was a damn sight more *contrived* than controversial, IMO...

As for season 6 (and 7) the problem is, as I've always described it, that the series had a good solid progression from season 1 on, leading to an inevitable and perfect that topped off an ideal series.... And then they fucked it up by making two more seasons, in which they pissed it all away (with a few exceptions, like the musical episode)

Season 5 is awesome, but it would have SUCKED big time as the ending of the show. The Gift is a great episode and a great season finale, but would have been a terrible, terrible series finale. A story about a female hero/metaphor of female empowerment ending with a martyr death, with her ultimate fate being to die young, just like every other Slayer? No, thanks. I have issues with Chosen, but as an ending to the show, Buffy doing something nobody did before and sharing her power with other women >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buffy dying because of the duty she was chosen for.

The Gift was like a fake ending to Buffy's narrative (conforming to the classic hero-martyr tropes) that fortunately got gloriously subverted in the next season when Buffy wasn't allowed to have her "perfect ending" (just as I was out, they pull me back in! ) and what she said in The Gift: "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it" had a great follow up in Once More, With Feeling when Spike stops her from killing herself and Dawn reminds her of her own words. As Buffy told Angel in Amends when she stopped him from killing himself: "Strong is fighting. It's hard, and it's painful and it's every day."

I didn't mind season 7 though I know where you're coming from. I think they might have been better served with less potentials. It was starting to feel like Xander's fantasy. Speaking of which Andrew must have been gay to even function in that house.

Well, duh.

 

[DevilEyes]

The answer to your Season 6 question can be summed up in two words:

Marti Noxon

Joss Whedon had far less hands-on day-to-day control on S6 because he was doing Firefly (you'll notice after Once More With Feeling, Joss didn't write/direct any more episodes that season including the finale). While the overall story was his, from what I read in interviews, Marti was the day to day showrunner and she tried to use her own experiences as a woman as touchstones in Buffy's storyline. or something.

Conceptually, I think it was fine, it was just bad execution and sloppy scripting.

And that's bad? Or something?

Since when it's a bad thing for writers to use their experiences in shaping up storylines? Is it better to write about things you have no clue about and characters you can't relate to?

Or is it bad only when a woman writer is using her personal experiences? I don't see anyone complaining that Joss used BtVS to deal with a lot of his personal high school issues, by his own admission. Or that Damon Lindelof, by his own admission, projected the hell out of his own issues at the time of Lost season 1 into Jack and Locke (his father had died, he had a spiritual awakening of sorts, he felt like he was given the reins of a new show after Abrams left and that he was cast in the role of a leader he didn't want and didn't know how to deal with the responsibility).

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

The answer to your Season 6 question can be summed up in two words:

Marti Noxon

Joss Whedon had far less hands-on day-to-day control on S6 because he was doing Firefly (you'll notice after Once More With Feeling, Joss didn't write/direct any more episodes that season including the finale). While the overall story was his, from what I read in interviews, Marti was the day to day showrunner and she tried to use her own experiences as a woman as touchstones in Buffy's storyline. or something.

Conceptually, I think it was fine, it was just bad execution and sloppy scripting.

And that's bad? Or something?

Since when it's a bad thing for writers to use their experiences in shaping up storylines? Is it better to write about things you have no clue about and characters you can't relate to?

Or is it bad only when a woman writer is using her personal experiences? I don't see anyone complaining that Joss used BtVS to deal with a lot of his personal high school issues, by his own admission. Or that Damon Lindelof, by his own admission, projected the hell out of his own issues at the time of Lost season 1 into Jack and Locke (his father had died, he had a spiritual awakening of sorts, he felt like he was given the reins of a new show after Abrams left and that he was cast in the role of a leader he didn't want and didn't know how to deal with the responsibility).

Only when I think the results of it sucks and it sticks out like a sore thumb in an otherwise brilliant tv series (though I think S7 is less than brilliant as well). It's not like the rest of the series hasn't had writers putting in their personal experiences, I think Joss has said early Xander has a lot of himself in it. Generally though I think that stuff is really good (and I suspect most fans like the examples you mentioned like Lost S1).

 

[DevilEyes]

4. Agreed. I loved Spike as a villain in Season 2, as comic relief in Season 4, and as a hilarious double-act with Angel on Angel. But I have absolutely no interest in Spike as a lovelorn romantic hero in Seasons 6 & 7. Part of the problem is that I don't think there were any characters in the Buffy cast that Spike had any real chemistry with, except maybe Giles. (And sometimes Dawn, but I never liked Dawn.)

I think Spike had great chemistry with pretty much everyone on the show - particularly with Buffy. Spike and Buffy (JM and SMG) had an incredible amount of chemistry even when they were 'mortal enemies' in season 2. Back when I was watching season 2 for the first time and was really into Buffy/Angel, I still thought that Buffy kinda had more chemistry with Spike than with her boyfriend, even though I didn't think anything would come out of it.

I think Spike's character hit a dead end in season 4 after becoming the replacement for Cordelia, when the writers were shoving him into storylines and didn't know what to do with him. He was also stripped of much of his complexity that he had in season 2 and 3 - his romantic nature, as well as genuinely dark and dangerous aspects of his characters. Instead he was just made into comic relief. Spike falling in love with Buffy is what saved the character from becoming useless, and gave him amazing character development and a great journey.

Oh, and Spike as a villain in season 2 and 3 was lovelorn and romantic, it was very much one of his main traits since School Hard... he just wasn't a hero. "I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it" comes from Lovers Walk in season 3.

Ironically, I heard from James Marsters that Joss Whedon never really liked Spike and always resented the fan & network pressures to increase his presence on the show. (Marsters also sounded quite bitter about blaming Joss for getting Angel cancelled by pressuring the WB for an early answer about whether or not they got renewed.)

Ironically, Marsters is completely off the mark there. Whedon has said he always liked Spike and thought "he was a good guy even when he was a bad guy".

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/joss-hearts-spike

Jeff: So when did you realize that Spike was more than just a villain?

Joss: Pretty much when James Marsters auditioned for it. Um, Spike was ya know, Spike was somebody that I loved conceptually and then ya know, James just brought and then kept on bringin'. So, it just, it was a pretty gradual process but it was always happening.

Jeff: A unique transition in that character from just a villain to almost the typical anti-hero. And yet never completely there.

Joss: Well, as a villain he was, ya know the Master that we started with was a straight up villain like, his belief system was just evil. And what was fun about Spike was, I said ok great and, and Mark, Mark Metcalf did a wonderful job, but now we need a villain who, that we can relate to in the way that we're relating to our other people, so that thematically they can become useful. So to introduce this guy who is clearly 'oh I'm such a bad ass' and then have him very tenderly in love with another vampire, so from the very beginning the idea was well he's not just, ya know a cardboard. He's, he's, he's gonna have levels to play. Um, how many I didn't at the time realize, but ah, in a way he, he really didn't change that much. Ah, he's a character that I always liked a little bit more than Angel because --

Jeff: He's got more of an edge.

Joss: He was more evolved, though. He had more of an edge, but at the same time ya know he was, ya know he chose to have a soul.

Jeff: Sure.

Joss: Ya know he ah, he learned from his mistakes and he um, Angel was kinda the classic Lestat puffy shirt, ya know...

Jeff: Right.

Joss: Um, and ah, and Spike was sort of the new mod rebellion against that, so I ah, I like that character. I always, I always thought he was a good guy even when he was a bad guy.

Jeff: Bad boy though, chicks love bad boys.

Joss: They do, they do. If they loved bad dancers the way they loved bad boys I would have been like, whoo.

Jeff: You would have been writing that.

Joss: Oh yeah.

Jeff: So it was an easy decision to bring him from Buffy over to Angel.

Joss: Um, the WB said they would not renew Angel unless we brought him over, so yeah it was a very easy decision.

Jeff: Really? Oh.

Joss: Um, and it was also an easy decision creatively, yes. We were, it was, and the best decision because we had a great ensemble on Angel um, but Spike and Angel's history meant that he and David played off each other in a way that nobody could, male or female and, ya know, David did some of his best work because he was in the room with James and Spike and Angel just... you think it's a banjo act and a banjo act but it's really not, they're so different.

Jeff: Instant conflict and yet great comedic moments.

Joss: Yeah. The two of them were so funny together.

The network had nothing to do with Spike's storylines on BtVS (the only thing Joss was forced by by the network - WB - was to bring Spike to AtS) and Joss was the one who came up with all of them and wrote so many of Spike's most memorable scenes (including rewriting huge chunks of Lovers Walk and Fool for Love, rewriting the B/S scene in Hell's Bells into one that showed Spike in a much better light, and completely rewriting Spike's church scene in Beneath You and making it a lot more poetic and better for Spike's character). If I were Marsters, I'd be grateful for all the great storylines and scenes Joss gave him.

Spike - vampire, (already evil), weakened further by falling in love with Buffy and also by his continued competitiveness with Angel

Hm, let's see:

Season 2 - Spike tries to kill Buffy, runs away from Joyce with her axe; tries again when Buffy is turned into a helpless 18th century lady, runs away from Buffy the moment she comes back to herself; sends assassins after Buffy next, cures Drusilla but gets injured by Buffy and has to spent most of the rest of the season in a wheelchair, while Angelus humiliates him and flirts/sleeps with Drusilla; until Spike teams up with Buffy because he wants to get rid of of Angelus but can't do it on his own.

Season 3 - Spike comes to town drunk, heartbroken and pathetic and cries and mopes to everyone about Drusilla cheating on him and dumping him, and tries to have Willow do a love spell on her.

Season 4 - Spike gets the Gem of Amara that would make him invincible but loses it by provoking Buffy into a fight, losing and having her strip the ring form his finger. He goes to L.A. and loses the ring again. He comes back to Sunnydale and gets caught by the Initiative and chipped. He runs away but then has to ask Buffy to take him in, and is treated as a joke and a pathetic chipped vampire who can't bite. He even tries to stake himself at one point and can't do it, until he discovers he can fight demons.

Season 5 - Spike falls in love with Buffy, apparently the beginning of his "weakening" (?). He withstands the torture by a hell god, telling her basically to fuck herself and not giving up Buffy's and Dawn's secret. After being treated as a joke for 2 years, he is accepted by the Scoobies and fights together with them against Glory and the Knights of Byzanthium.

Season 6 - Spike continues to patrol and kill demons while Buffy is dead. After learning he can hurt Buffy, he provokes her into another fight in which they're on equal terms and which ends up with them having sex. After a tumultuous, mutually abusive relationship that Buffy ends, and after trying to rape Buffy (and realizing he feels guilty about it), he goes and fights for his soul, successfully completes the trials and wins his soul back, something no other vampire has apparently done before.

Season 7 - After a long period of insanity, trigger and torture by the First, Spike finally gets his shit together with Buffy's help. Buffy believes that he can be a Champion and gives him the amulet. During the battle with the First, Spike's amulet destroys the Turok-Hans and turns the battle around, but he decides to do better than that and sacrifice himself in order to close the Hellmouth for good, becoming a real hero.

Hm, weakened indeed.

I'm not sure why you think "Angel came the closest to being equal to Buffy". Spike did much better in that area than Angel ever did on BtVS. Spike fought for his soul and became the great hero of season 7 finale, a lot of season 7 was his redemption story. Angel didn't really do anything incredibly heroic on BtVS - in season 1 finale he wouldn't have done anything if Xander hadn't given him a kick in the butt and made him take him to Master's lair. In season 2 he turned evil (and he was an effective Big Bad because of Buffy's feelings for him, not because he could beat her or anything - he lost to her every time) and was cursed by the soul in the finale, getting sent by Buffy to hell while not even realizing what's going on (as opposed to Spike making the choice to heroically die in Chosen to close the Hellmouth, and rejecting Buffy's suggestion to leave with her because he's done enough). Angel is the passive puppet of fate on BtVS, things happen to him and he rarely makes things happen (which Spike does in a big way in the season 6 finale and season 7 finale). He got cursed with a soul in the first place, and he was living on the streets and eating eats until Whistler came as a messenger of the PTB to give him a kick in the butt and tell him to go and help Buffy. In season 3, Angel gets thrown back from the hell dimension and has no idea why; then he gets tormented by First's visions and decides to kill himself because he thinks he's a weak man who can't resist turning evil again, and changes his mind only because of Buffy and the Magical Snow (message from the PTB?); then he just lingers around not knowing what to do for most of the season; in season 3 finale, he gets stabbed by Faith and then Buffy makes him drink from her to save his life.

Angel only gets to be strong and heroic on his own show. On BtVS, not so much. Angel on BtVS functions as Buffy's brooding, romantic boyfriend and rarely gets to have his own POV on BtVS (except in Becoming and Amends), unlike Spike, who gets a lot of development and POV episodes and almost feels like a co-protagonist in seasons 5-7.

I think Giles and Xander came off as stronger than BtVS Angel as well. Giles is an authority figure who turns out to be more badass and resourceful than he seemed at the beginning (and he has his own big morally ambiguous but possibly world-saving moment in S5 finale, plus the badass comeback in S6 finale), while Xander is the "everyman" figure with lots of insecurities who nevertheless gets to save Buffy in the season 1 finale and to save the world in season 6 finale.

Only when I think the results of it sucks and it sticks out like a sore thumb in an otherwise brilliant tv series (though I think S7 is less than brilliant as well). It's not like the rest of the series hasn't had writers putting in their personal experiences, I think Joss has said early Xander has a lot of himself in it. Generally though I think that stuff is really good (and I suspect most fans like the examples you mentioned like Lost S1).

A matter of taste then. I love Noxon's work on BtVS and enjoy the relationship drama in her episodes and in season 6.

 

[DevilEyes]

Really the only problem I had with Buffy (the series) was the same problem I had with Angel (the series):

Giles - A normal human, who sometimes dabbles in dark magic - which we always find out leads to bad things. Eventually he just leaves. Weakened further

Xander - the "normal" guy, weak, geeky, dumb, and always needing to be rescued.

Spike - vampire, (already evil), weakened further by falling in love with Buffy and also by his continued competitiveness with Angel

Riley - the most straight-arrow of the bunch, he's constantly competing with her and eventually loses and moves on.

Angel - arguably the person who comes closest to equaling Buffy, is always shown to still be bested by her, weaker than her, and ultimately "less" than her because he is, by his very nature, evil.

*laughs madly* seriously?

In order...

1. Giles... knows enough about magic and the supernatural to be a massive threat to any Slayer or Witch... as Ripper was feared enough as a normal human to get a reputation as a warlock...

2. Xander... well, without Xander, or if he'd died at any point in the series, Buffy would be dead... show over... quick rundown...

season 1 - Saves Buffy's life via CPR
season 2 - Rocket launcher destroys the judge thanks to Xander, without him the Judge destroys Sunnydale and then moves on...
season 3 - School bomb 1 and 2... 1st with the zombies about to blow open the hellmouth, which Buffy never found out about... then military knowledge to bomb the school destroying the giant demon mayor snake...
Season 4 - The heart - without a 'normal' human to act as the focus for the spell, Adam would have easily slaughtered the rest of the crew until they were all little cyborg puppets in his army...
season 5 - Ok, no Xander saving here... but Giles managed to kill Ben (Glory), something Buffy would never do...
season 6 - Saves the world by grounding Willow and loving her... tacky but true lol
season 7 - can't remember any huge scenes, but has the balls to go in fighting with the slayers and witches and gets his eye gouged out for the trouble

Spike... saves the world at least twice, probably more... and looks badass while doing it...

Angel... professed Champion for the powers... saved the world a few times, and keeps hair gel companies active just on his own...

Riley... ok, you've got me there... he was useless... best thing he ever did was become addicted to vamp feeding... probably the best thing for that character

M

I think I'm just having a hard time viewing the male characters as "weaker" like you're suggesting that they are. Giles is a fucking badass. Spike is certainly strong enough to take on Buffy and beat the shit out of her several times. Hell, at the end of Season 6, Xander is the one who stepped in and saved the day when Buffy failed!

True dat. If this were Facebook, consider your posts liked.

Plus, as Dream points out, the curse is not about sex, it's about happiness. In "Surprise" it was the act of making love with a woman he loved and who loved him back, not sex per se. In "Awakening" it was beating the bad guy, seeing all his friends come back together, being forgiven by his son and his girlfriend, being the big damn hero and then making love to a woman he loved that did the trick. Just the good old in-and-out won't cut it. Granted, the characters themselves gloss over that just as badly as anyone, but that's how it works.

This.

Buffy's primary strength is her ability to run around and beat the shit out of things with her fists. She doesn't command a powerful starship or solve problems by leading men into battle with fancy laser guns. She walks up to the scary demon thing and punches it in the face.

Weeelllll.... there is that aspect to it, certainly. But I think that's selling her short. Many times she's the one to actually solve the problem with thinking, not just punching. Willow has the book smarts, Giles has the ancient knowledge, Xander has the devils-be-damned balls, and Buffy has the fists, yes. But she also has a sideways thinking ability that is often the solution to the situation they find themselves in. She's the one who comes up with the plans more often than not, and not just because she's the Slayer, but because she's Buffy. Plus, she's usually smart enough to take advice and rely on other people knowing stuff (until season 7 at least, anyway). She knows enough to know she doesn't know everything, and that's an admirable quality.

And then she punches it.

*applauds*