Um, then why did she say at one point, "hello, gay now" and explicitly identify as gay and not bi?
*FINALLY* I've finished Buffy, let's dish a little.
- Thread starter Mr. Adventure
- Start date
Um, then why did she say at one point, "hello, gay now" and explicitly identify as gay and not bi?
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
Probably because at that point in the series, she was more interested in women than men.
And really, sexuality is not as two-sided as the GOP would have you believe.
And really, sexuality is not as two-sided as the GOP would have you believe.
S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
The answer to your Season 6 question can be summed up in two words:
Marti Noxon
Joss Whedon had far less hands-on day-to-day control on S6 because he was doing Firefly (you'll notice after Once More With Feeling, Joss didn't write/direct any more episodes that season including the finale). While the overall story was his, from what I read in interviews, Marti was the day to day showrunner and she tried to use her own experiences as a woman as touchstones in Buffy's storyline. or something.
Conceptually, I think it was fine, it was just bad execution and sloppy scripting.
Marti Noxon
Joss Whedon had far less hands-on day-to-day control on S6 because he was doing Firefly (you'll notice after Once More With Feeling, Joss didn't write/direct any more episodes that season including the finale). While the overall story was his, from what I read in interviews, Marti was the day to day showrunner and she tried to use her own experiences as a woman as touchstones in Buffy's storyline. or something.
Conceptually, I think it was fine, it was just bad execution and sloppy scripting.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
The network switch is also why there are far fewer crossovers during seasons 6 & 7 with Angel than in previous seasons. Supposedly the networks did not want the extra competition now that the sibling series were on competing networks.
Also: I seem to recall there being discussions at some point that Anthony Stewart Head would star in a "limited" six-episode "Ripper" series for the BBC (that would be shot in England) during the height of his time away from the show during its final years, but as others have said, it never materialized.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
Which is what a showrunner is expected to do. Or at the very least, it is well within the purview of the position to do. Joss obviously had enough faith in her to leave her in charge, and whether or not the story was something people liked, he believed in her ability to to tell it while still remaining true to the overall voice he'd established for the series.
This. (mostly)
The story of S6 was all Joss', but Marti and David Fury were responsible for bringing it to life. Regardless of fan opinion, Joss believed in the season and in Marti and Fury, although he did acknowledge the fan backlash by making S7 lighter in tone and more similar to the tone of the first five seasons.
Without knowing about any of the post-S7 stuff I like to think that Willow decided to stop experimenting after college and got together with her true soulmate. Xander.
Screw Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike, I never cared which punching bag Buffy was mooning over. Willow/Xander was the relationship I wanted to see come to fruition.
Maybe, maybe I wouldn't be so bitter about it, but Tara had to be the blandest most useless main character on the show(Dawn comes close mind you). What made so many characters on Buffy interesting was that they made mistakes and had human weaknesses. Tara was too perfect and just didn't fit the rest of the show(Riley sort of had the same problem).
Screw Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike, I never cared which punching bag Buffy was mooning over. Willow/Xander was the relationship I wanted to see come to fruition.
Maybe, maybe I wouldn't be so bitter about it, but Tara had to be the blandest most useless main character on the show(Dawn comes close mind you). What made so many characters on Buffy interesting was that they made mistakes and had human weaknesses. Tara was too perfect and just didn't fit the rest of the show(Riley sort of had the same problem).
I liked the Willow/Xander relationship, too. A shame that was mostly dropped in later seasons. I guess I can see that about Tara, but Amber Benson is just so hot and awesome that it makes up for it.
I guess maybe Tara showed that you had to be a little screwed up to be in Buffy's world. Being nice gets you mindwiped and killed.
To the comment about Dawn, she at least was more fully fleshed out and integrated with everyone. Hell, she even had an outing with Clem.
Is there a term for a small bit of flesh exposed just above the beltline? Cause this show must have the record amount.
To the comment about Dawn, she at least was more fully fleshed out and integrated with everyone. Hell, she even had an outing with Clem.
Is there a term for a small bit of flesh exposed just above the beltline? Cause this show must have the record amount.
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doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
Really the only problem I had with Buffy (the series) was the same problem I had with Angel (the series):
In BTVS, none of the male characters are equal, as powerful as, or more powerful than Buffy. At the end of the day - she beats them all, is better than them all:
Giles - A normal human, who sometimes dabbles in dark magic - which we always find out leads to bad things. Eventually he just leaves. Weakened further
Xander - the "normal" guy, weak, geeky, dumb, and always needing to be rescued.
Spike - vampire, (already evil), weakened further by falling in love with Buffy and also by his continued competitiveness with Angel
Riley - the most straight-arrow of the bunch, he's constantly competing with her and eventually loses and moves on.
Angel - arguably the person who comes closest to equaling Buffy, is always shown to still be bested by her, weaker than her, and ultimately "less" than her because he is, by his very nature, evil.
I get that Buffy is supposed to be a transcendant character and that she's a role model for girls and feminists diagetically and in the realm of television, but it'd have been a lot more meaningful I think, if the men throughout the series weren't all powered down or at such a disadvantage comparatively.
In BTVS, none of the male characters are equal, as powerful as, or more powerful than Buffy. At the end of the day - she beats them all, is better than them all:
Giles - A normal human, who sometimes dabbles in dark magic - which we always find out leads to bad things. Eventually he just leaves. Weakened further
Xander - the "normal" guy, weak, geeky, dumb, and always needing to be rescued.
Spike - vampire, (already evil), weakened further by falling in love with Buffy and also by his continued competitiveness with Angel
Riley - the most straight-arrow of the bunch, he's constantly competing with her and eventually loses and moves on.
Angel - arguably the person who comes closest to equaling Buffy, is always shown to still be bested by her, weaker than her, and ultimately "less" than her because he is, by his very nature, evil.
I get that Buffy is supposed to be a transcendant character and that she's a role model for girls and feminists diagetically and in the realm of television, but it'd have been a lot more meaningful I think, if the men throughout the series weren't all powered down or at such a disadvantage comparatively.
there's nothing unusual about that dynamic. She's supposed to be something like a superhero, and is the main character as well. You might as well complain about Batman being too powerful vs other characters in his shows and movies.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
I'm not complaining that Buffy is too powerful. I'm saying the men on the show were always powered down, in order to make her seem more powerful - and unnecessarily so.
Had any of the male characters on that show been near her equal the way Angel was, it would make her seem all the more special, all the more important and all the more well-rounded. As it is, she's Superman and everyone else is Richard Pryor, bumbling around.
It's more about the context of the disparity between the two, than either one of them individually.
The same thing can be said about Angel and all the females on his show, apart from maybe Cordelia.
Had any of the male characters on that show been near her equal the way Angel was, it would make her seem all the more special, all the more important and all the more well-rounded. As it is, she's Superman and everyone else is Richard Pryor, bumbling around.
It's more about the context of the disparity between the two, than either one of them individually.
The same thing can be said about Angel and all the females on his show, apart from maybe Cordelia.
1. Totally agreed. Some fans insist that she's bi but from Season 5 onwards, the show took great pains to paint her has purely gay, to the point where she couldn't even consider a relationship with that guy with the magic letter jacket in "Him" without coming up with a spell to turn him into a woman first. Now, the writers are free to do whatever they want with Willow's sexuality. It's just that, in the later seasons, it felt like they were trying to pretend that her crush on Xander & her relationship with Oz never happened. I think there should have at least been some kind of scene where Buffy or someone asks her how she reconciles being a lesbian with her previous straight attractions. This is TV after all. We learn things through dialogue!
2. I dunno. I think Adam was a pretty lame villain. But I think Season 4 is highly underrated due to many of the show's greatest stand-alones, including "The Freshman," "Living Conditions," "Fear Itself," "Pangs," "Something Blue," "Hush," "This Year's Girl," "Who Are You?," "Superstar," & "Restless." Even a really crappy episode like "Where the Wild Things Are" still has tons of great 1-liners from Xander, Spike, & Anya.
3. Boo for all of Joss Whedon's gratuitous character killings. At least Marvel will make sure he doesn't kill off anyone too important in The Avengers. (But I have a sinking feeling that Agent Coulson should make sure his life insurance is up to date.
)4. Agreed. I loved Spike as a villain in Season 2, as comic relief in Season 4, and as a hilarious double-act with Angel on Angel. But I have absolutely no interest in Spike as a lovelorn romantic hero in Seasons 6 & 7. Part of the problem is that I don't think there were any characters in the Buffy cast that Spike had any real chemistry with, except maybe Giles. (And sometimes Dawn, but I never liked Dawn.)
Ironically, I heard from James Marsters that Joss Whedon never really liked Spike and always resented the fan & network pressures to increase his presence on the show. (Marsters also sounded quite bitter about blaming Joss for getting Angel cancelled by pressuring the WB for an early answer about whether or not they got renewed.)
It could be a factor. I'm not sure I've ever heard any of the Buffy writers comment on it. But on the Roswell DVDs, the writers there talk about how UPN was much more hands off than the WB. The WB always had notes about wanting less sex, more action, and tended to have very specific ideas about how to maintain the likability of the characters. UPN just let them do whatever they wanted.
The problem with Tara was that they took Willow, the most timid character on the show, and tried to make her the dominant one in the relationship by creating the mousiest love interest possible.
*laughs madly* seriously?
In order...
1. Giles... knows enough about magic and the supernatural to be a massive threat to any Slayer or Witch... as Ripper was feared enough as a normal human to get a reputation as a warlock...
2. Xander... well, without Xander, or if he'd died at any point in the series, Buffy would be dead... show over... quick rundown...
season 1 - Saves Buffy's life via CPR
season 2 - Rocket launcher destroys the judge thanks to Xander, without him the Judge destroys Sunnydale and then moves on...
season 3 - School bomb 1 and 2... 1st with the zombies about to blow open the hellmouth, which Buffy never found out about... then military knowledge to bomb the school destroying the giant demon mayor snake...
Season 4 - The heart - without a 'normal' human to act as the focus for the spell, Adam would have easily slaughtered the rest of the crew until they were all little cyborg puppets in his army...
season 5 - Ok, no Xander saving here... but Giles managed to kill Ben (Glory), something Buffy would never do...
season 6 - Saves the world by grounding Willow and loving her... tacky but true lol
season 7 - can't remember any huge scenes, but has the balls to go in fighting with the slayers and witches and gets his eye gouged out for the trouble
Spike... saves the world at least twice, probably more... and looks badass while doing it...
Angel... professed Champion for the powers... saved the world a few times, and keeps hair gel companies active just on his own...
Riley... ok, you've got me there... he was useless... best thing he ever did was become addicted to vamp feeding... probably the best thing for that character
M
Angel, on his series, could take out his entire team without breaking a sweat. No one could compare to him in that show except for the villains (at least until season 5).
Buffy is the main character. Main characters are always the strongest. I'm really not sure what you're arguing about here.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
I'm arguing the point that the strength we are supposed to appreciate in Buffy and in Angel comes close to meaning nothing if all the other people on the show are weak.
Better stated: There was never a time on the show when any of the other characters would have been able to take down Buffy or Angel. Both times Buffy died, she did it of her own choice and free will. When Angel became Angelus, he did it because he chose to or because he chose to let himself become intimate with Buffy or Cordy.
Better stated: There was never a time on the show when any of the other characters would have been able to take down Buffy or Angel. Both times Buffy died, she did it of her own choice and free will. When Angel became Angelus, he did it because he chose to or because he chose to let himself become intimate with Buffy or Cordy.
i'll argue the intimate bit... it wasn't the sex that caused his 'perfect happiness', it was Buffy... he never lost his soul when boning Darla or the werewolf chick in S5... it was only Buffy... and at that point he didn't know about the curse anyway... so not really a choice, just Angel thinking with his dick instead of his head lol
M
I would say that Riley was a generally underrated character. Yes, he was very much a straight arrow, which made him far less quirky than the rest of the cast. But with such a quirky cast, his "normality" gave him his own unique flavor to add to the mix. (As opposed to Tara, who was basically Willow-lite, and Dawn, who was more of a plot device than a character.)
I agree that Season 6 was unbearably depressing. But then, I think the descent actually began in Season 5 when Joyce died. After that, the show just never fully recovered.
I agree that Season 6 was unbearably depressing. But then, I think the descent actually began in Season 5 when Joyce died. After that, the show just never fully recovered.
I'd agree with this, but that said I would like to rewatch the show again now, particularly S5 given I've lost a parent (and in some ways two) since the first time I saw it.
As for nobody being equal of Buffy, well I guess a lot of shows have this, it is a fine line between giving your protagonist a worthwhile enemy, whilst also making it believable they can win.
It's not like Buffy had it easy up against The Master, Angelus, Spike, The Mayor etc etc...
And if anything Spike and Angel were superior examples of vampires. One problem I have with Buffy overall is how defanged the vampires are, they're the disposable footsoldiers of the demon world seemingly, if anything Angel and Spike are atypical, aside from a few other examples most vamps we encounter are easily dispatched idiots.
The worst example of defanging came with the uber vamps. They seem to be like Daleks. One on it's own is the most terrifying opponant imaginable, one who Buffy only just takes down (with a lot of help as I recall) but an army of ubervamps seem to be made of tissue paper...
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