Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITHIN*
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Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
Moffat talks the last few episodes of this series on the BBC's website, closing with this about "The Name of the Doctor":
That tracks with the rumored plot synopsis.
The personal aspect? His dead TARDIS.
Needing to be saved? Clara jumping into an infinity of timestreams.
Why Clara's impossible? She's been splintered through time.
Surprise that will change Who history? There's a forgotten Doctor.
Moffat talks the last few episodes of this series on the BBC's website, closing with this about "The Name of the Doctor":
That tracks with the rumored plot synopsis.
The personal aspect? His dead TARDIS.
Needing to be saved? Clara jumping into an infinity of timestreams.
Why Clara's impossible? She's been splintered through time.
Surprise that will change Who history? There's a forgotten Doctor.
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
If true, that negates all the rumours that John Hurt was cast as a last minute replacement when Eccleston backed out. This seems more like something that would have been planned.
If true, that negates all the rumours that John Hurt was cast as a last minute replacement when Eccleston backed out. This seems more like something that would have been planned.
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
Or they changed the nature of the revelation. Moffat did say in another recent interview that they'd just finished shooting the real ending of the episode.
Or they changed the nature of the revelation. Moffat did say in another recent interview that they'd just finished shooting the real ending of the episode.
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
As StCoop says, plans could have changed due to availability. At the end of "The Name of the Doctor," perhaps we were to have the shock reveal of Christopher Eccleston. Now, we'll have the shock reveal of John Hurt.
I'm starting to wonder, assuming the rumors that Hurt is the Time War Doctor are true, if the reason the Doctor escaped the Moment and the Time Lock that trapped Gallifrey is because of the intervention of his future selves. In other words, the Doctor wasn't lucky in escaping the fate of his people; instead, he helped himself escape. (It's a recursive problem like the Doctor escaping from the Pandorica -- cause happens because of effect -- but that's a Moffat trick that he's used a number of times.)
If that's the case, then Hurt could be fulfilling the Eccleston role. We would have learned that Eccleston fought the Time War and was trapped in the Time Lock until Smith and/or Tennant released him. Now, we'll learn that it was Hurt who fought the Time War and was trapped in the Time Lock until Smith and/or Tennant released him.
How does this track with reports that this is a story that Moffat has wanted to tell for a long time? I don't think it's the "forgotten Doctor" aspect that Moffat's wanted to tell. I think it's something else entirely.
Perhaps the core of the story that Moffat has carried around for years went like this. Let's suppose there's a Doctor who's tired and weary and doesn't want to go on any more. He's ready to give up on life. And then, like Clarence in It's a Wonderful Life, another Doctor, a future Doctor no less, shows up and tells him that he shouldn't feel so bad. There's so much fun to be had in the universe. There are awesome things to do, fantastic places to see. The Doctor really has made a difference. And, in a meta commentary way, even if he doesn't like how things are going now, they will change in a few years, possibly for the better. From here, you have a romp. The Doctors run around, revisiting things or doing new things (giving the story a reason to have all the monsters) as the older Doctor tries to convince his younger and more cynical self that things are okay and he should go on. And by the end, the cynical younger Doctor has had a change of heart and he feels like he can go on again.
That kind of framework doesn't require a forgotten Doctor. Heck, it doesn't even require the Time War. It just requires a tired and grumpy Doctor. There are points where you could have done this story with Hartnell, Troughton, Pertwee, Baker, etc.
As StCoop says, plans could have changed due to availability. At the end of "The Name of the Doctor," perhaps we were to have the shock reveal of Christopher Eccleston. Now, we'll have the shock reveal of John Hurt.
I'm starting to wonder, assuming the rumors that Hurt is the Time War Doctor are true, if the reason the Doctor escaped the Moment and the Time Lock that trapped Gallifrey is because of the intervention of his future selves. In other words, the Doctor wasn't lucky in escaping the fate of his people; instead, he helped himself escape. (It's a recursive problem like the Doctor escaping from the Pandorica -- cause happens because of effect -- but that's a Moffat trick that he's used a number of times.)
If that's the case, then Hurt could be fulfilling the Eccleston role. We would have learned that Eccleston fought the Time War and was trapped in the Time Lock until Smith and/or Tennant released him. Now, we'll learn that it was Hurt who fought the Time War and was trapped in the Time Lock until Smith and/or Tennant released him.
How does this track with reports that this is a story that Moffat has wanted to tell for a long time? I don't think it's the "forgotten Doctor" aspect that Moffat's wanted to tell. I think it's something else entirely.
Perhaps the core of the story that Moffat has carried around for years went like this. Let's suppose there's a Doctor who's tired and weary and doesn't want to go on any more. He's ready to give up on life. And then, like Clarence in It's a Wonderful Life, another Doctor, a future Doctor no less, shows up and tells him that he shouldn't feel so bad. There's so much fun to be had in the universe. There are awesome things to do, fantastic places to see. The Doctor really has made a difference. And, in a meta commentary way, even if he doesn't like how things are going now, they will change in a few years, possibly for the better. From here, you have a romp. The Doctors run around, revisiting things or doing new things (giving the story a reason to have all the monsters) as the older Doctor tries to convince his younger and more cynical self that things are okay and he should go on. And by the end, the cynical younger Doctor has had a change of heart and he feels like he can go on again.
That kind of framework doesn't require a forgotten Doctor. Heck, it doesn't even require the Time War. It just requires a tired and grumpy Doctor. There are points where you could have done this story with Hartnell, Troughton, Pertwee, Baker, etc.
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
I like that premise but I would only find that effective with an established, already known Doctor, even if it's The Eighth Doctor. While I'm not completely against John Hurt being a forgotten Doctor, I wouldn't want him to be utilized in this manner because the emotional impact is not as strong, especially for the 50th anniversary.
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
Funnily enough there is a character called Clarence in the Finale. He even gets the lead role in the "Prequel".
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/clarence-and-whispermen
Funnily enough there is a character called Clarence in the Finale. He even gets the lead role in the "Prequel".
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/clarence-and-whispermen
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
It kinda craps on the guilt Eccelston went through and that it was Rose who helped him heal, which has been a big theme throughout the RTD years
That's fair.
This premise would be crazy effective for the ninth Doctor as a story that leads into "Rose."
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
They're all supposed be the same man anyway.
***
I'm guessing that the last shot of the episode was going be something like the TARDIS appears and out step Eccleston and Piper. They would have always have been leaving that to shoot until they were making the Anniversary Special, so now it will be out step Hurt and Piper. So no longer a jump out your chair and cheer moment and more a WTF moment; less special but still a massive cliffhanger.
They're all supposed be the same man anyway.
***
I'm guessing that the last shot of the episode was going be something like the TARDIS appears and out step Eccleston and Piper. They would have always have been leaving that to shoot until they were making the Anniversary Special, so now it will be out step Hurt and Piper. So no longer a jump out your chair and cheer moment and more a WTF moment; less special but still a massive cliffhanger.
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
I don't say this as a rabid Doctor/Rose shipper or as a Rose Mega-fan, but, rather, in regards to the importance of his brokeness before meeting Rose and the weight that held on the first few Series of NuWho
Sure, but, if a future Doctor helped himself heal, it detracts from what a broken "man" he was when he met Rose
I don't say this as a rabid Doctor/Rose shipper or as a Rose Mega-fan, but, rather, in regards to the importance of his brokeness before meeting Rose and the weight that held on the first few Series of NuWho
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
I guess it depends on whether The Doctor, or whatever other entity, is "alive" at the point when you get to hear his name.
The get out clause would be in what Dorium Maldovar said before: "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the 11th, when no living thing can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked."
I guess it depends on whether The Doctor, or whatever other entity, is "alive" at the point when you get to hear his name.
The get out clause would be in what Dorium Maldovar said before: "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the 11th, when no living thing can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked."
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
If there's a forgotten Doctor, so what? That only changes the numbering of the ones that came after him, it won't affect the course of Who, only merchandise and wiki pages.
I'm not even sure what's so interesting about the Doctor's name, do we really care? Unless it's Hubert Rani-son or Master-cousin Johnson it doesn't matter.
Fine, he has to answer and can't lie, what happens?
Clara: What's your name?
Doctor: Jo'nh Thmis!
Clara: John Smith?
Doctor: No, Jo'nh Thmis!
Clara: Ok, next question, who's the hottest, Vastra, Jenny, River or me?
Doctor: Vastra, but honestly, the guy over there beats all of you, right?
Clara: Eww, he looks like a walking potato ... I think he heard me ... we have to get out of here!
Doctor: Definitely.
No, it won't! Stop pretending this is more than another episode of Doctor Who, Moffat! It won't change anything significant and even if it does it won't be forever, it will be for this one episode and then everything's back to normal at the end of the christmas special.Moffat said:
If there's a forgotten Doctor, so what? That only changes the numbering of the ones that came after him, it won't affect the course of Who, only merchandise and wiki pages.
I'm not even sure what's so interesting about the Doctor's name, do we really care? Unless it's Hubert Rani-son or Master-cousin Johnson it doesn't matter.
Fine, he has to answer and can't lie, what happens?
Clara: What's your name?
Doctor: Jo'nh Thmis!
Clara: John Smith?
Doctor: No, Jo'nh Thmis!
Clara: Ok, next question, who's the hottest, Vastra, Jenny, River or me?
Doctor: Vastra, but honestly, the guy over there beats all of you, right?
Clara: Eww, he looks like a walking potato ... I think he heard me ... we have to get out of here!
Doctor: Definitely.
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Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
He can't help himself. Moffat's a huckster who loves to troll his audience and could give lessons to P.T. Barnum.
He can't help himself. Moffat's a huckster who loves to troll his audience and could give lessons to P.T. Barnum.
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
Try this one on for size. River Song is able to de-age herself ('slowly at first, just to freak people out') even after regeneration. Of course, this is to explain Alex Kingston looking younger in previous episodes. Taking Allyn's It's a Wonderful Life analogy to its' conclusion, what if (in the just-shot surprise finale) Hurt's Doctor at the end decides to 'take the age down a bit,' take an electric razor to his beard and hair, and what emerges (via archival footage/CGI trickery) is Eccleston?
Try this one on for size. River Song is able to de-age herself ('slowly at first, just to freak people out') even after regeneration. Of course, this is to explain Alex Kingston looking younger in previous episodes. Taking Allyn's It's a Wonderful Life analogy to its' conclusion, what if (in the just-shot surprise finale) Hurt's Doctor at the end decides to 'take the age down a bit,' take an electric razor to his beard and hair, and what emerges (via archival footage/CGI trickery) is Eccleston?
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
I'm still thinking "if Hurt's an alt/lost Doctor, he'll be one who never left Gallifrey, at least until the Time War wrecked the place"...
I'm still thinking "if Hurt's an alt/lost Doctor, he'll be one who never left Gallifrey, at least until the Time War wrecked the place"...
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
It'd be even better if he emerged as River Song.
It'd be even better if he emerged as River Song.
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
Makes sense. Further, I suspect that if the Clara rumors are true, then that would be a result of her intervention. Imagine her, spread through the Doctor's history saving his time streams but - ah! - she messed one or two up. Altered the time war a bit, say, so Eight died and regenerated in a different time or place or what have you, and now they've got this alternate Ninth doc who never existed that they have to deal with. Moffat loves his wobbly wobbly universe-imperiling paradoxes, so this naturally threatens to tear reality apart, and there's the premise for the 50th special.
Makes sense. Further, I suspect that if the Clara rumors are true, then that would be a result of her intervention. Imagine her, spread through the Doctor's history saving his time streams but - ah! - she messed one or two up. Altered the time war a bit, say, so Eight died and regenerated in a different time or place or what have you, and now they've got this alternate Ninth doc who never existed that they have to deal with. Moffat loves his wobbly wobbly universe-imperiling paradoxes, so this naturally threatens to tear reality apart, and there's the premise for the 50th special.
Re: Finale discussion thread (spoilerifictitle insided) *SPOILERS WITH
Ah, but people have guessed the forgotten Doctor. So, according to Moffat that's not right. Yeah, I know, we can't always take him at his word . . .
Mr Awe
Ah, but people have guessed the forgotten Doctor. So, according to Moffat that's not right. Yeah, I know, we can't always take him at his word . . .
Mr Awe