Does anyone know the complete weapon's load of the fighters used by the Federation during the Dominion War?
JDW
JDW
Fighter Weapon;s load?
- Thread starter James Wright
- Start date
No.
But we could do some guesswork based on "The Maquis II". Quark pretty much gave the warload of those two fighters of the same type when he listed the weapons in Maquis possession:
To which Odo has this to add:
Then we see the fighters, and they fire a regular phaser from the lower bow (which thus probably is a standard feature, since it's not on Quark's list), and forward blasts from the three cylinders at each wing midspan (which look like phasers, but might be the pulse cannon because of the matching numbers and because they indeed fire short pulses rather than long beams, and thus probably aren't a standard feature), and torpedoes from underbelly (which may be either standard or Maquis-only).
Then again, in the earlier "Preemptive Strike", the fighters fired phaserlike bolts from what looked like the front ends of the warp cowlings. In Starfleet use in "Sacrifice of Angels", they do pretty much the same. The clearly present nose phaser is not used (perhaps because it's weaker than those cowling guns), nor do we see the wing pulse cannon in use again (perhaps because they are used only by the Maquis), and we don't even see identifiable photon torpedo launches.
On the winning side, "Preemptive Strike" tells us the Maquis wielded Type 8 phasers and photon torpedoes. The fighters didn't launch torps, not that we could see at any rate, but those cowling phasers could well be dubbed Type 8 on basis of this. The bow phaser could then be a lesser weapon, say, a Type 5 (as the Tech Manuals suggest for shuttlecraft, and Capt. Keogh did compare these fighters to shuttles in terms of firepower).
So here's my guess for the Starfleet package:
* Steerable nose emitter for Phaser 5, self-defense
* Cowling hardpoints for Phaser 8, offensive use
* Ventral bay for a handful of torpedoes, possibly not full-size ones
* Wing hardpoints for countermeasures
Maquis version, "Preemptive Strike":
* Steerable nose emitter for Phaser 5, self-defense
* Cowling hardpoints for Phaser 8, offensive use
* Ventral bay left empty for lack of torpedoes
* wing hardpoints for countermeasures
Maquis version, "The Maquis II":
* Steerable nose emitter for Phaser 5, main weapon
* Cowling hardpoints left empty or reserved for use against planetary targets rather than good old Ben Sisko
* ventral bay for a handful of torpedoes, possibly not full-size ones
* wing hardpoints for pulse phasers, perhaps better than Type 5
Timo Saloniemi
But we could do some guesswork based on "The Maquis II". Quark pretty much gave the warload of those two fighters of the same type when he listed the weapons in Maquis possession:
To which Odo has this to add:
Then we see the fighters, and they fire a regular phaser from the lower bow (which thus probably is a standard feature, since it's not on Quark's list), and forward blasts from the three cylinders at each wing midspan (which look like phasers, but might be the pulse cannon because of the matching numbers and because they indeed fire short pulses rather than long beams, and thus probably aren't a standard feature), and torpedoes from underbelly (which may be either standard or Maquis-only).
Then again, in the earlier "Preemptive Strike", the fighters fired phaserlike bolts from what looked like the front ends of the warp cowlings. In Starfleet use in "Sacrifice of Angels", they do pretty much the same. The clearly present nose phaser is not used (perhaps because it's weaker than those cowling guns), nor do we see the wing pulse cannon in use again (perhaps because they are used only by the Maquis), and we don't even see identifiable photon torpedo launches.
On the winning side, "Preemptive Strike" tells us the Maquis wielded Type 8 phasers and photon torpedoes. The fighters didn't launch torps, not that we could see at any rate, but those cowling phasers could well be dubbed Type 8 on basis of this. The bow phaser could then be a lesser weapon, say, a Type 5 (as the Tech Manuals suggest for shuttlecraft, and Capt. Keogh did compare these fighters to shuttles in terms of firepower).
So here's my guess for the Starfleet package:
* Steerable nose emitter for Phaser 5, self-defense
* Cowling hardpoints for Phaser 8, offensive use
* Ventral bay for a handful of torpedoes, possibly not full-size ones
* Wing hardpoints for countermeasures
Maquis version, "Preemptive Strike":
* Steerable nose emitter for Phaser 5, self-defense
* Cowling hardpoints for Phaser 8, offensive use
* Ventral bay left empty for lack of torpedoes
* wing hardpoints for countermeasures
Maquis version, "The Maquis II":
* Steerable nose emitter for Phaser 5, main weapon
* Cowling hardpoints left empty or reserved for use against planetary targets rather than good old Ben Sisko
* ventral bay for a handful of torpedoes, possibly not full-size ones
* wing hardpoints for pulse phasers, perhaps better than Type 5
Timo Saloniemi
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Oh, okay - I interpreted those pulses as phaser blasts, but they could be taken to be torpedoes as well.
In any case, they come in pairs, rather than as single centerline shots of the sort that Cal Hudson's craft fired from right under its nose. So we might speculate that the fighters have three hardpoints for torpedoes: two under the warp cowlings, one on the centerline.
In "Sacrifice of Angels", no fighter fires more than one volley at the Cardassian ships, so we might argue that the fighters are incapable of carrying any reloads: it's just one torpedo per hardpoint. Which would make sense considering the dimensions of the fighters, and assuming that the torpedoes are full-size starship torps. Also, it might be that a torpedo is the only thing in the fighter's arsenal that can dent a capital ship.
In "The Maquis II", however, Cal Hudson's craft fires five torpedoes. Then again, we could argue that the first two, fired offscreen, came from the warp cowling hardpoints (where there wouldn't be room for too many more), while the final three were the sum total carried in the centerline bay (where there should be more room). If the craft had more torpedoes than that, how come Hudson didn't use those?
OTOH, all the five torps appeared to miss Sisko's runabout. So perhaps that's why Hudson switched to the pulse weapons, which scored a powerful hit after a bit of ranging. Or perhaps Hudson saved his torps for the bombardment of his planetary target.
Some more backpedaling: the pulse weapons don't fire from the wing midpoints that have those three cylinders after all, but from closer to the warp cowlings. We might even argue that they are the very same guns we see in use in "Preemptive Strike".
And those cylinder groups on the wings could be self-protective countermeasures - if only because the Fact Files once suggested this functionality to similar cylinder groups on the larger Maquis ships flown by Eddington and Chakotay. Utterly noncanon, but also largely irrelevant...
It doesn't seem that Hudson would have fired too many of the exotic weapons he bought from the Vulcan gunrunner, then. Just the torpedoes, and possibly the pulse guns (because even if the cowling guns are Starfleet standard, the craft might have lacked those when the Maquis got their hands on them). Alternately, these weapons might have been the disruptors or the particle accelerators; but in any case we didn't see two out of these three. Either they were left for use on other craft, or in ground action, or Hudson had them aboard but saved them for his planetary target.
All right, then: the updated guess.
Starfleet package:
* Steerable nose emitter for Phaser 5, self-defense (not used)
* Cowling emitters for Phaser 8, offensive use (not used)
* At least two side-by-side ventral bays for a handful of torpedoes
* Wing cylinders for countermeasures
Maquis version, "Preemptive Strike":
* Steerable nose emitter for Phaser 5, self-defense (not used)
* Cowling hardpoints for Phaser 8, offensive use
* Ventral bays not seen in action, perhaps for lack of torpedoes
* wing cylinders for countermeasures
Maquis version, "The Maquis II":
* Steerable nose emitter for Phaser 5, self-defense
* Cowling hardpoints for Phaser 8, offensive use
* ventral bay for a handful of torpedoes, possibly not full-size ones
* wing cylinders for countermeasures
I wouldn't be surprised, really, if the bow Phaser 5 had some sort of a dorsal stern counterpart. That would make the craft like WWII aircraft with their defensive steerable machine guns... We never saw that in action, but then again, we never saw a situation where it would have had a valid target.
Timo Saloniemi
In any case, they come in pairs, rather than as single centerline shots of the sort that Cal Hudson's craft fired from right under its nose. So we might speculate that the fighters have three hardpoints for torpedoes: two under the warp cowlings, one on the centerline.
In "Sacrifice of Angels", no fighter fires more than one volley at the Cardassian ships, so we might argue that the fighters are incapable of carrying any reloads: it's just one torpedo per hardpoint. Which would make sense considering the dimensions of the fighters, and assuming that the torpedoes are full-size starship torps. Also, it might be that a torpedo is the only thing in the fighter's arsenal that can dent a capital ship.
In "The Maquis II", however, Cal Hudson's craft fires five torpedoes. Then again, we could argue that the first two, fired offscreen, came from the warp cowling hardpoints (where there wouldn't be room for too many more), while the final three were the sum total carried in the centerline bay (where there should be more room). If the craft had more torpedoes than that, how come Hudson didn't use those?
OTOH, all the five torps appeared to miss Sisko's runabout. So perhaps that's why Hudson switched to the pulse weapons, which scored a powerful hit after a bit of ranging. Or perhaps Hudson saved his torps for the bombardment of his planetary target.
Some more backpedaling: the pulse weapons don't fire from the wing midpoints that have those three cylinders after all, but from closer to the warp cowlings. We might even argue that they are the very same guns we see in use in "Preemptive Strike".
And those cylinder groups on the wings could be self-protective countermeasures - if only because the Fact Files once suggested this functionality to similar cylinder groups on the larger Maquis ships flown by Eddington and Chakotay. Utterly noncanon, but also largely irrelevant...
It doesn't seem that Hudson would have fired too many of the exotic weapons he bought from the Vulcan gunrunner, then. Just the torpedoes, and possibly the pulse guns (because even if the cowling guns are Starfleet standard, the craft might have lacked those when the Maquis got their hands on them). Alternately, these weapons might have been the disruptors or the particle accelerators; but in any case we didn't see two out of these three. Either they were left for use on other craft, or in ground action, or Hudson had them aboard but saved them for his planetary target.
All right, then: the updated guess.
Starfleet package:
* Steerable nose emitter for Phaser 5, self-defense (not used)
* Cowling emitters for Phaser 8, offensive use (not used)
* At least two side-by-side ventral bays for a handful of torpedoes
* Wing cylinders for countermeasures
Maquis version, "Preemptive Strike":
* Steerable nose emitter for Phaser 5, self-defense (not used)
* Cowling hardpoints for Phaser 8, offensive use
* Ventral bays not seen in action, perhaps for lack of torpedoes
* wing cylinders for countermeasures
Maquis version, "The Maquis II":
* Steerable nose emitter for Phaser 5, self-defense
* Cowling hardpoints for Phaser 8, offensive use
* ventral bay for a handful of torpedoes, possibly not full-size ones
* wing cylinders for countermeasures
I wouldn't be surprised, really, if the bow Phaser 5 had some sort of a dorsal stern counterpart. That would make the craft like WWII aircraft with their defensive steerable machine guns... We never saw that in action, but then again, we never saw a situation where it would have had a valid target.
Timo Saloniemi
There are some very good photos of the physical model available from multiple angles. They were taken while it was set up for auction. These may be of use to you JDW; if you can't dig them up on the interwebs let me know, as I think I have them around somewhere.
Here are some cut'n'paste links to those auction shots of the model:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/christies/fedfighter-christies-frontside.jpg
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/christies/fedfighter-christies-side.jpg
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/christies/fedfighter-christies-front.jpg
Also, there are some more or less accurate blueprints, such as these (as seen in the Fact Files):
http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/Adam_Heinbuch/Peregrine1.jpg
http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/Adam_Heinbuch/Peregrine2.jpg
In the blueprints, there is no obvious feature to correspond to the twin phaserlike beams being fired in "Preemptive Strike" and Hudson's final strafing run in "The Maquis II", but the model features small angular add-ons just outboard of the square at the front of the warp cowling (this square sometimes glows dull red and is probably a ramscoop) that would be almost perfect. Look at the side view in the auction pics, for example.
Also, the model here has a feature on the bow that to me looks like it wasn't there in "The Maquis II" yet, and sure wasn't in the CGI craft used in the later battles. It's a big round "muzzle" that might portray a deflector dish or a torpedo tube - or then it might be a fancy cover for the motion control arm used for photographing this model.
Alas, neither the model nor the blueprints show any obvious opening from which the torpedoes could emerge.
Timo Saloniemi
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/christies/fedfighter-christies-frontside.jpg
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/christies/fedfighter-christies-side.jpg
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/christies/fedfighter-christies-front.jpg
Also, there are some more or less accurate blueprints, such as these (as seen in the Fact Files):
http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/Adam_Heinbuch/Peregrine1.jpg
http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/Adam_Heinbuch/Peregrine2.jpg
In the blueprints, there is no obvious feature to correspond to the twin phaserlike beams being fired in "Preemptive Strike" and Hudson's final strafing run in "The Maquis II", but the model features small angular add-ons just outboard of the square at the front of the warp cowling (this square sometimes glows dull red and is probably a ramscoop) that would be almost perfect. Look at the side view in the auction pics, for example.
Also, the model here has a feature on the bow that to me looks like it wasn't there in "The Maquis II" yet, and sure wasn't in the CGI craft used in the later battles. It's a big round "muzzle" that might portray a deflector dish or a torpedo tube - or then it might be a fancy cover for the motion control arm used for photographing this model.
Alas, neither the model nor the blueprints show any obvious opening from which the torpedoes could emerge.
Timo Saloniemi
Do any of you know if Starfleet has any carrier type starships?
What happens to the fighters after they fire all their torpedoes and external stores? Phasers alone against larger starships won't cut it!
Thanks!
JDW
What happens to the fighters after they fire all their torpedoes and external stores? Phasers alone against larger starships won't cut it!
Thanks!
JDW
If we assume that the cockpit of that fighter is the same size as the TNG shuttlepod (which is the set they used for it in "The Maquis II"), and go for the lower end of possible size estimates, we easily get to where the craft would fit inside standard shuttlebays - or even through those three blue-glowing squares at the bow of an Akira that may be launch tubes.
The latter feat at least requires that the outermost sections of the fighter's wings fold up when the craft is aboard a ship. But that looks like a reasonable assumption anyway: there's a seam there at least, and the craft could settle on the ground much more comfortably if the outer wings folded, too.
So perhaps there is no carrier warfare in Trek, or at least not in Starfleet, but more like seaplane warfare. Any large ship may carry "seaplanes" in addition to "boats" (regular shuttles), and a few ships may be configured to carry a greater contingent of "seaplanes" at the cost of some other systems, but there aren't ships that would be specifically designed to carry "aeroplanes".
That's a good analogy in other ways as well. These "seaplanes" resemble their WWI and interwar era forebears in that they don't fly particularly high and fast: they are almost as slow as the ships they hunt, and they have to stay almost as "low" as the "boats", i.e. they have no maneuver analogous to bombing from great heights, outside the optimum range of defenses.
Timo Saloniemi
The latter feat at least requires that the outermost sections of the fighter's wings fold up when the craft is aboard a ship. But that looks like a reasonable assumption anyway: there's a seam there at least, and the craft could settle on the ground much more comfortably if the outer wings folded, too.
So perhaps there is no carrier warfare in Trek, or at least not in Starfleet, but more like seaplane warfare. Any large ship may carry "seaplanes" in addition to "boats" (regular shuttles), and a few ships may be configured to carry a greater contingent of "seaplanes" at the cost of some other systems, but there aren't ships that would be specifically designed to carry "aeroplanes".
That's a good analogy in other ways as well. These "seaplanes" resemble their WWI and interwar era forebears in that they don't fly particularly high and fast: they are almost as slow as the ships they hunt, and they have to stay almost as "low" as the "boats", i.e. they have no maneuver analogous to bombing from great heights, outside the optimum range of defenses.
Timo Saloniemi
How powerful are the weapons carried by Starfleet fighter craft, how much damage can they do against a fully shielded and better armed starship?
Thanks!
JDW
Thanks!
JDW
Hard to judge since we don't really know what the actual loadouts of the fighters are. In "Sacrifice of Angel" we see the ninth wave of attack fighters destroy a Galor class starship and I'm pretty sure it is the only vessel we see destroyed by attack fighter. That might mean it would take 2-3 hours of fighter strikes to destroy a Galor if that Galor was the same ship that the fighters attack at the start of the battle. Personally, I'm inclined to believe it wasn't the same ship but my opinion means little in terms of the truth.
In "What You Leave Behind", Sisko calls for attack fighter support to help the Defiant when it is getting hammered by a Breen warship so you could guess that the fighter would be able to destroy or at least be enough of a threat to get the Breen warship off the Defiant. Then again it might just be that the only ships under Sisko's command in the battle other the the Defiant were attack fighters so he was calling for them since he had no choice other then he thought they could take down a Breen ship.
Did the fighters have pulse phasers like the Defiant or did they have standard phasers?
Thanks!
JDW
Thanks!
JDW
Since they were hardly ever used that way (if at all), even during a desperate war (and when they were, it may have been mostly to act as bait/distraction), we have to figure these "fighters" cannot themselves make a huge impact against such a target under typical conditions.
However, Maquis versions stood up to runabouts pretty well, so they aren't *too* fragile. We may imagine that in groups they could hang in there long enough to have some measurable effect.
Something the size of a runabout/Data's scout/"fighter" carrying even a few full-size torpedoes could really make a difference if the torpedoes were deployed at the right moment.
Even a Runabout (the Maqui Federation fighters were roughly on par with them) was able to defeat a Jem'Hadaar bug ship.
Granted, that was mostly Weyoun with inside knowledge on those ships, but still, it demonstrates that fighters in numbers can pose a deadly threat to an actual star-ship.
SF would also equip those fighters much better compared to the Maqui because they have larger resources at their disposal.
I also recall that there was a TNG episode (or a DS9 one) in which a shuttle was mounted with capital-ship phasers (type 8 or type 9 phasers ... not sure).
This is yet another demonstration that fighters (if properly equipped) can pose a serious threat.
True, they were not used that much ... but they were used by the Maqui and the Federation in every major conflict.
I'm also pretty sure that Sisko called to his aid those fighters because he knew they can make a difference ... otherwise, why have them in battle to begin with?
Granted, that was mostly Weyoun with inside knowledge on those ships, but still, it demonstrates that fighters in numbers can pose a deadly threat to an actual star-ship.
SF would also equip those fighters much better compared to the Maqui because they have larger resources at their disposal.
I also recall that there was a TNG episode (or a DS9 one) in which a shuttle was mounted with capital-ship phasers (type 8 or type 9 phasers ... not sure).
This is yet another demonstration that fighters (if properly equipped) can pose a serious threat.
True, they were not used that much ... but they were used by the Maqui and the Federation in every major conflict.
I'm also pretty sure that Sisko called to his aid those fighters because he knew they can make a difference ... otherwise, why have them in battle to begin with?
In both the Dominion War and in TNG "Preemptive Strike", dozens of fightercraft were used against a single Galor class ship, which our heroes alternately consider a destroyer or more typically a cruiser. It always took volley after volley of pounding before there was anything approaching physical damage to the ship.
In TNG, said Galor was unable to defend herself much: there were relatively few phaser beams hitting back at the fighters, and they had little effect. In DS9, the number of beams was roughly doubled, and a single hit sustained for half a second killed a fightercraft. The results of Dominion technological assistance, or merely better circumstances and less initial damage? Hit rate was basically 100% in both cases.
We have to remember, though, that three much larger and supposedly much more powerful Birds of Prey also took their sweet time pounding a Galor in "Way of the Warrior", and hadn't yet reached the stage where they would blow chunks off the ship when our heroes arrived. They had managed to suppress the defenses and drive systems of the ship - but that's pretty much what the Maquis swarm had done as quickly in "Preemptive Strike". So if you don't want to send three BoPs, then two dozen fighters are a valid alternative...
In the Dominion War, the fighters weren't seen using their phasers - they fired pairs of torpedoes, and contrary to what I claimed before, a fighter was sometimes seen firing two pairs in quick succession. In Maquis hands, they had a steerable continuous-beam phaser under the nose, plus forward-firing weapons at or near the warp engine cowlings firing brief pulses in both TNG and DS9. Whether these pulse phasers were similar to those of the Defiant in any relevant technical sense, or somehow fundamentally different, we don't know.
Yup, that was TNG "Preemptive Strike". Gul Evek cursed that the Maquis possessed Type 8 phasers on at least some of their small craft - we don't know if it was these fighters that we later saw in Starfleet hands, or perhaps some of the somewhat larger craft also in the Maquis swarm, though.
Type 8 is what certain capital ship weapons have been labeled on MSDs from the TOS movie era - the Enterprise-B had those as her main weapons, for example. So if the Type numbers indicate power, those small craft were really fearsome... Various tech manuals suggest the Mirandas and perhaps Kirk's TOS ship had Type 7 phasers only!
Timo Saloniemi
I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but the actual model of the "Federation Fighter" has a large circular thing on the nose that is probably meant to be a torpedo launcher. I don't know if it had this when it was originally designed, but it's visible in later photos of the model. That being said, I'd be willing to bet that the Peregrine/Fighter is armed with six to eight full-sized photon torpedoes. The smaller nose-mounted weapon is probably the "ship-mounted disruptor" Sakona mentioned, and the particle accelerators would be, IMO, some kind of defensive system or ECM device.
Don't know exactly what Type-8 phasers are, but considering "type" and "model" are two completely different things (even TOS hand phasers are called "Type-2" or "phaser-2") I would assume these are probably large phaser banks of a type that would either be nose mounted on the Peregrine or wingtip mounted in the larger Raiders.
Don't know exactly what Type-8 phasers are, but considering "type" and "model" are two completely different things (even TOS hand phasers are called "Type-2" or "phaser-2") I would assume these are probably large phaser banks of a type that would either be nose mounted on the Peregrine or wingtip mounted in the larger Raiders.
But only the model sold in the Christie's auction has this feature. It's not there in "The Maquis II", and it probably wasn't there in "Preemptive Strike". It was never made part of the CGI model used in the later DS9 episodes, either.
This could be considered an offscreen variant, perhaps...
Timo Saloniemi
I would prefer to think it was always there but just wasn't easy to see. Especially in the visual we see in "The Maquis" in which two photon torpedoes zip past Sisko's runabout. Even if we assume these are microtorpedoes--which I usually don't--the lack of visible launch tubes on the fighter or external hardpoints leads me to wonder where those torpedoes came from.
Photon torpedoes aren't all that big. Actually, they're small enough that you could mount them on a modern attack helicopter without too much trouble.
Photon torpedoes aren't all that big. Actually, they're small enough that you could mount them on a modern attack helicopter without too much trouble.
Nope - after those two have streaked past, the camera angle changes, and we see the next three launched from the underbelly centerline of Hudson's craft.
In theory, we could argue that the five torpedoes were hanging on external hardpoints there. In practice, we saw the underside of that craft in the shot where Sisko grabbed Hudson in a tractor beam, and there was nothing there.
So some sort of a drop launch chute would be our best assumption, I guess. As said, the torps aren't that big - so even if the craft is just fifteen meters long, it could carry a dozen if stowed right.
There isn't a 2x1 m hatch on the underside, though. But as the Fact Files blueprints show, there are many smaller features there that would fit the bill. After all, why launch the torpedo belly first? Forward end first, then a rapid turn, would make just as much sense - that's how the silo-stored, vertically-launched missiles on today's warships behave.
A somewhat angled stack of torpedoes dropping out through a centerline hatch (as with the Maquis craft) would be just fine for our purposes. Two stacks on both sides (as with Starfleet craft) could simply be a different model.
Or then we could be talking "minitorpedoes": torps that are of the usual full starship caliber, but only one-third as long because they don't need a warp drive...
Curiously, nothing like weapons fire ever comes out of these fixtures, even though it's pretty obvious the designer of the craft intended these to be "wing machine guns" or somesuch.
Timo Saloniemi
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