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Fifteen years later, I still don't fully understand the final few minutes of Voyager.

Never was going to happen. Not in a million years. If that's your estimation of what she truly deserved, than I would suggest a discreet and expertly obscured assassination by Section 31 would be the better tack. Would go over much better all the way around.

Why not...? She murdered members of her own crew, endangered her ship without due cause or reason, refused promotions to officers that deserved them, showed a complete lack of judgement regarding course and speeds, attempted murder, willingly acted in an alliance with a federation enemy, took part in mass genocide... FFS, even Johnathon 'My daddy built a warp 5 engine but died before he saw it fly' Archer was never that bad
 
Why not...? She murdered members of her own crew, endangered her ship without due cause or reason, refused promotions to officers that deserved them, showed a complete lack of judgement regarding course and speeds, attempted murder, willingly acted in an alliance with a federation enemy, took part in mass genocide... FFS, even Johnathon 'My daddy built a warp 5 engine but died before he saw it fly' Archer was never that bad

As far as I know, all the captains should make a more or less a long stay in jail! :whistle: (how many did respect Starfleet book of rules, like the Prime Directive? None. All showed a tendency to compromise their core values in extreme situations. And in the end, people died because of their stands. And did they feel remorse, regrets? Nope. They only estimate to have acted with full knowledge of the facts in a given situation at some point, even if the result could be perceived as cruel or/and immoral. That is what it is to be an superior officer (in summary, to do the dirty job in order to see others people living in peace and taking advantage of all privileges of a free world -> in the case of Voyager, the crew of Voyager never rebelled against its Captain. Au contraire, it respected her and was ready to follow/support her choices...even if some members haven't understand her decsion in The Caretaker.

It seems to me that your harder in your judgments towards Janeway than you would be with Kirk, PIcard (who can be implacable sometimes), Sisko ( a very complex character who was able to lie and obstruct justice in "In the Pale Moonlight" or was able to poison the atmosphere of a Maquis colony to catch a traitorous in "For the Uniform", etc...), who were as mindless and dangerous and even "jerk" as Janeway could be a "bitch" sometimes, especially when it was towards certain members of its crew (Paris who was doubly punished in Thirty Days to have disobeyed to an direct order even though Chakotay, Seven and The Doctor came up without ever being sanctioned for their acts, which are as reprehensible except maybe a small oral remonstrance).
Also, B'Elena & Harry who were protected, even if Harry got a remonstrance written in his personal file in The Disease but no harm really done for his carrier (not to promote Enseign Kim was a will of producers).

Janeway made mistakes during its stay in the Quadrant Delta but damn, she was alone in middle of nowhere with on one side a crew of 150 people who expected from her that she protects them (and returns them at their home, on Earth) & on the other side, she had to watch that the vessel and its technical innovations don't fall to the hands of the enemies even if it means sacrificing the vessel and her crew, including herself.
And if I remember well, most of the time, it's the other colonnies of the Quadrant Delta which attacked the Voyager. What should she have made. Run away?!
As for the mistakes at the level of the tactical choices, her faithful seniors have their share of responsibility also. Including The Doctor.

Well, didn't plan to make my comment so long... . :whistle:
 
Janeway said that she was willing to fight any board of inquiry with nepotism, gladhanding and the old boys network. Kathryn believes that she is above the law. Any law, from anywhere.

KASHYK: Are you sure you'll be welcome when you do? I came across something else in your database. The Prime Directive.
JANEWAY: The Federation's cardinal protocol.
KASHYK: It seems you violated it when you rescued these telepaths.
JANEWAY: Well, let's just say I usually go with my instincts and sort it out later at the Board of Inquiry. Those Admirals and I were on a first name basis, you know. You're risking a lot, too. Why?
 
Why not...? She murdered members of her own crew, endangered her ship without due cause or reason, refused promotions to officers that deserved them, showed a complete lack of judgement regarding course and speeds, attempted murder, willingly acted in an alliance with a federation enemy, took part in mass genocide... FFS, even Johnathon 'My daddy built a warp 5 engine but died before he saw it fly' Archer was never that bad

I believe that most of the bona fides you're supplying, without context, are willful hyperbole that wouldn't hold water in any witch hunt, er, investigation. Killed members of her own crew? Tuvix? Well, that's your opinion, as well as many others, but one that I, and many others, feel is cardinally flawed. Who else? Give the individual instances of the ship being heedlessly endangered and I think that most can be countenanced, or if you prefer, rationalized away, by the specific circumstances at play. Refused promotions? Kim? Although, certainly referenced and recognized in-universe, I think the obvious answer to this seeming conundrum to you, is that the show runners didn't wish for him to be promoted, to retain the fresh faced archetype. Who else? I don't know that we were supplied with a thoroughgoing log of the speed Voyager operated at throughout the journey. If this is a supposition based on the belief that the ship would have gotten back to Earth far sooner if a much greater average speed had been maintained, I would suggest that doing so would have run the risk of incurring substantive damage over time to the propulsion systems, that given their isolation, might have been extremely difficult to deal with.You also call into question her selection of course choices. I don't recall there being any intimation that Janeway ever clearly didn't know where her choices were sending Voyager. Perhaps it's not what you are pointing to, but if your sense is that detours to examine compelling features of the DQ was simply wrongheaded, I would counter that to fully ignore the aspect of exploration and discovery that had never been undertaken by a Starfleet starship, would have been willfully ignoring a prime mandate that Janeway was bound to observe, especially in such an extraordinary set of circumstances. I believe she was able to pursue this track without unduly sublimating the essential goal of returning home. In fact, such diversions sometimes put Voyager in a position to possibly take advantage of shortcuts that they would never have been aware of otherwise (Prime Factors).

Attempted murder? Lessing? I have no doubt that Janeway's supercharged rage towards Ransom led her to pursue a deeply personal vendetta type pursuit and capture of the Equinox. I don't think it is unequivocal however, that in carrying out her implacable determination, that she would have allowed herself to cross that pale, even while making the threat to Lessing appear to be as close to reality as possible. Is this simply wishful intuition? It's plausible, but ultimately I don't believe that she would lose cognizance of the reality of the situation and the clear pronouncement of what she would be admitting to herself about her own character, if she were actually to take that final step. Who else? The alliance with the Borg is about the weakest remonstrance that one can claim. The breadth, nature, and reality of the Borg threat to the galaxy was a known quantity, and Voyager's experience would come to show the limitations and weaknesses that could be exploited to blunt that very eminent danger. However, when faced with a force that was able to effortlessly eradicate such a foe, and much more significantly, explicitly state the unhesitating goal of wiping all life in the galaxy clean, a tactical union with the Borg, planned to be abrogated as soon as their technology could be taken advantage of to battle this new, indefatigable, clearly existential threat, was truly a choice that had to be made. Chakotay's option, aside from being woefully myopic, wouldn't have even spared Voyager the same fate that they would have been abandoning the rest of the galaxy from suffering. Mass genocide? Now who was that again? The Ocampans? No, maybe Arturis' planet? If that is an instance that you propose laying at Janeway's feet, I would say that the premise is as clearly false as the scenario above. So, his people were essentially wiped out by the Borg, who without Janeway's intervention, would have been irrevocably removed as a threat to any species. OK, that's all well and good, but I would argue that not a single soul of his race would have survived the depredations of the Undine, as we knew them. So, perhaps they would enjoy a few more months or so, if that, of existence. Now if you have another example(s) in mind, please reveal such incidents, as in my current pique, I simply can't bring them to mind. In fact, I'd ask you at the same time to honestly rattle off the species that Janeway's actions saved from annihilation by the characteristically malevolent actors one found in the DQ, a verity that you conveniently ignore to mention in your rant.

As for my statement about Janeway's fate, do you seriously believe that Starfleet, or any governing body, would foolishly dare to impugn, let alone prosecute, a figure of such undoubtedly universal acclaim throughout the Federation? Someone who made an unprecedented contribution to the base of knowledge and discovery in the history of the Federation, let alone of a completely unknown area of the galaxy, one that coincidentally, was in large measure, intolerant of such an alien intrusion to their turf. Someone, who in the face of these, let's say, recalcitrant races, was nonetheless able to set up the foundation for amicable relations, if not potential Fed members, among those that were found to be rather more enlightened and welcoming than that inhospitable cohort. To say nothing of a leader, that brought her ship and crew home from such a perilous trial, with remarkably few losses. What purpose would such an action serve? The truth? Whose truth? One might just as well publicly bring into question the ethos of the Federation, as it would be very broadly perceived, than proceed down that path. I wouldn't argue that the record would escape scrupulous examination, but in the grand tradition of Starfleet, if any egregious behaviors were actually discerned through such scrutiny, they would find a familiar place under a very decorative rug somewhere in the towers of power in San Francisco. Anything else, keep dreaming, or if you truly feel that the totality of Janeway's legacy is so opprobrious, hope you have some fellow travelers amongst that august organization I mentioned in my post, that would be willing or charged, to engage in some superbly executed wetwork.
 
Lessing was only saved by the fact that Chakotay went in and saved him - and was then relieved for doing so. I fully believe that Janeway would have gone through with it.

It may have been here or another site, but a few years ago some mega fans actually put together a full GCM - very interesting reading
 
Lessing was only saved by the fact that Chakotay went in and saved him - and was then relieved for doing so. I fully believe that Janeway would have gone through with it.

It may have been here or another site, but a few years ago some mega fans actually put together a full GCM - very interesting reading

She repeatedly said it was a calculated risk, that Lessing would break, basically that she knew what she was doing. It didn't seem to me that her's was the voice or intent of a cool, calm, unrepentant murderer, seeking vengeance on the closest representative of a captain whose action were an unforgivable affront to her. In overseeing Tuvix's dissolution, we saw the face of someone who appeared to die a little herself. She knew what that felt like. I simply don't believe that she would allow herself to repeat that experience, crossing such an irrevocable line, even if her sense of pique might have brought her to the edge of loss of control as opposed to calculation.
 
How you describe Lessing and Janeway, reminds me of a gambler at a casino, running out of money, borrowing from the house, losing all of his money, then borrowing from the Mob and losing all his money.

Janeway did do unTuvix Tuvok when she order baker Tuvok to kill him self in favour of original Tuvok in Riddles.

In Relativity, Janeway (and her crew?) consented to being integrated with doppelgängers form divergent timelines, or Dutch said that that was the plan, and we didn't see Janeway turn tables on the Captain of the Relativity.
 
By the time Janeway is threatening Lessing in the cargo bay, she's so mentally broken that the issue of whether she genuinely would kill him or not becomes irrelevant. She's clearly lost all perspective and doesn't know what she's doing at this point. And she admitted to this at the end of the episode.

Tryng to apologise for her behaviour just makes people look silly.
 
By the time Janeway is threatening Lessing in the cargo bay, she's so mentally broken that the issue of whether she genuinely would kill him or not becomes irrelevant. She's clearly lost all perspective and doesn't know what she's doing at this point. And she admitted to this at the end of the episode.

Tryng to apologise for her behaviour just makes people look silly.

And on that reason alone should be given a GCM

I might write it as a fanfiction story and see what you all think
 
By the time Janeway is threatening Lessing in the cargo bay, she's so mentally broken that the issue of whether she genuinely would kill him or not becomes irrelevant. She's clearly lost all perspective and doesn't know what she's doing at this point. And she admitted to this at the end of the episode.

Tryng to apologise for her behaviour just makes people look silly.

Whether it strikes you or others as being in denial, I don't believe I've been an apologist for her behavior, or even justifying it. A few posts back, I used the phrase "deeply personal vendetta" to describe Janeway's course of action, as well as saying that it was her "supercharged rage" towards Ransom that drove it. I don't think that is suggestive of any sense that I have that she was acting "normally" or within the realm of what Starfleet Command would consider appropriate, in this circumstance.

I believe that she clearly saw Ransom's choice to facilitate his ship's journey home, as an affront to the difficult and painful decisions that her sense of morality and adherence to Starfleet protocols had led her to make over the course of 5 years, to say nothing of the bare fact of the genocide that he was committing. Was Janeway mentally broken in pursuing a righteous disposition to the situation, as she saw it? I don't think so. She took logical steps to achieve her goal, which by the way, I don't accept as something so dire as the murder of Ransom and his crew, as opposed to their apprehension. In fact, she tried to save Ransom, but he had already decided on the reckoning of his own fate.

I don't think minimizing the distinction between threatening to commit a lethal act, and actually committing it, is trivial or irrelevant. What's your opinion on Jimmy Carter's "lust in the heart" contention? Would you deny that Kirk used the same sort of action, as a strategy, on a number of occasions? Also, if Janeway was so mentally lost that she was only too willing to kill Lessing, than I hardly think Chakotay's intervention would have prevented it from happening subsequently. The reality was that taking the threat to the edge and no farther, as is what actually happened, resulted in the desired information being provided. Whether Janeway lacked the ability to know what she was doing at the moment or, alternately, was very aware of what the impact on Lessing's resolve by her appearing to be in that condition, is unknowable, I believe, but certainly open to debate.

Over the course of time, did Janeway exhibit symptoms of the impact of emotional or psychological stress? Yes, Night clearly demonstrated that. But I certainly don't believe that such behavior was in anyway as prevalent as a number of people would seem to support. Is Equinox a valid representation of that tension being put on display? Yes. Using the descriptor of being mentally broken is extreme, IMO. If that were the case, how would one reasonably suggest that she had regained it by the episode's end and continuing on? It reappeared as soon as her vengeance was satisfied, like the completion of a pon farr? While Voyager certainly had some examples of serious personal crises being presented, looked at a little bit, and then ostensibly resolved by the equivalent of take an aspirin and see me in the morning, I don't think this qualifies. Did the exacting sense of justice that Janeway was convicted of needing to be meted out, equate to her being out of control or having lost at least, a significant part of her perspective, to the extent that she put her own ship and crew in danger? I can agree to that and that an argument could have been put forward by the Doctor, perhaps effectively, that it was warranted that she be relieved of command. But there is a gulf, as I see it, between agreeing to such an action because of specific decisions that were actually made and reflexively accepting that Janeway was effectively totally mentally incompetent in the affair. Now, your contention that she actually admitted to malfeasance, of a substantive nature, is interesting and perhaps compelling. The latter being arguable, because the instances were rare indeed that she would make a statement of that sort at all, although here, it is purposefully left on the pallid side, and not an out and out confession. But one could venture that her saying any such thing, is, in reality, pretty damning. Does Chakotay's stepping back from agreeing without reservation, simply reveal another instance of his lack of a certain part of the male anatomy or that, by however little a margin, he really didn't believe that Janeway had crossed that threshold? I would suggest that if he were really as convinced of her materially having lacked the ability to command, he could still have pursued making that case to the Doctor after the situation had been resolved. It would certainly have made an interesting bridge to a following episode that would have been consumed by evaluating her general fitness. That would have been very diverting to see, but again, for whatever reason, Chakotay's calculus was that ultimately, what he deemed far beyond the pale at the moment it occurred, was no longer viewed in that light.
 
Yes, but if it was only corners that he cut, I think her unrestrained animus would have been toned down by far more than a few degrees.
 
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