Feminism in Star Trek Discovery

[SJGardner]

Hold on, there might be something about shows like Discovery with supermajority-female casts and male erasure, because I'm a fan of Discovery and I've lost any lingering semblance of my masculinity since it came out. Discovery must have erased my manhood and turned me into a woman!

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Apparently the "classic male characters" are so classic "she" can't even spell their names even close to correct. This whole thing smells like an act.

 

[gvn2fly]

the show should not even be having 5 females to 1 male.

Why? Did you have a problem with the older shows only having one woman on the bridge? That wasn't balanced either.

the show should not even be having 5 females to 1 male.
also what is the ratio at NASA?

Who cares?

the show should be having a balance. it is not about been threatened, it is about the fact that even the female characters are used nothing more as a platform for a ''message'' that the story itself tends to suffer and we are left with a mediocre sci fi show.

I don't think Discovery is a top tier sci fi show, but I don't see how it has anything to do with the female characters or any kind of "message". I also don't see how the female characters are only used as a platform as you say. The only way any of the female characters in Discovery are used is as a platform for a "message"? Is that what you are really saying?

meanwhile the classic male characters they keep trying to erase become more popular and beloved (data, ricker, sisko, goeordi) because these new females characters are in CW generic star trek that it becomes more necessary to hold on and even appreciate great star trek like TNG that just happens to all the good male characters.

I am really having a hard time even making sense of this paragraph. Who is trying to erase the male characters from the TNG cast? Who is "they"? If those characters are so "classic" to you why don't you know their names? I can understand appreciating TNG more because someone thinks Disco is subpar, but what does this have to do with gender?

I think the fact that of all the star trek series, Discovery been the weakest in story telling, writing , intellectual depth, character development and world building really hurts all the diversity and really hurts women, because at the end of it all, the worst star trek tv show is female driven. not the best look is it?

Well, that's your opinion. Many (including myself) don't think it's the worst Trek show and I've seen comments about how some fans consider it to be their favorite or one of their favorite Trek shows. From your posts it sounds like its the worst for you because its female driven? There are valid writing issues to be discussed about the show, but the gender of the cast doesn't have any relation to that.

 

[valden]

Apparently the "classic male characters" are so classic "she" can't even spell their names even close to correct. This whole thing smells like an act.

I have learning issues since I was a kid and I am a poor speller in general.

it is sad that on a trek forum, that is mocked. however, does it really change anything I said?

TNG is in fact considered a classic TV show like Mash, The Sopranos, Friends, Seinfeld and has been on many greatest tv show list ranked by tv critics. I know episodes like Measure of a Man made impact in tv writing and cause and effect had an influence of how sci fi writers wrote time loop stories, Best of Both worlds part 1 ending when Picard becomes Loctus of Borg is on every best tv cliff-hanger list of all time even Lower Decks has gotten some references on how to hire a person for a job in real life. I have seen one of my siblings, hire a person by using the lower decks approach.

TNG is a classic masterpiece of a show that changed the game of sci fi and drama TV. the characters are classic characters of TV and get a lot of reference in pop culture. discovery has not had that kind of impact or reception.

the quality of discovery writing is no where near TNG at its best and that is an issue that cannot be consolidated by a 5-1 female to male ratio, which to be honest is not the reality of the space exploring workforce.NASA has two-third male employees and one-third female employees.

I really hope you can see my pov, I think you misunderstood why i brought up TNG. Also TNG was diverse in leads even for the 80s and 90s..

2 females (Deena and Crusher)
2 white males (Riker and Picard)
1 black male (Geordi)
1 black male alien (Worf)
1 chalk-white male android (Data) (who faced a lot of prejudice that gave us maybe the best episode Measure of a Man)

But TNG had subtance, discovery does not and that indeed affects the characters, who are also diverse even in a way that is not reality since 65% of those who work in nasa are males and 35% are females.

i hope i have explained things well enough because I dont want to be seen as a troll

 

[gvn2fly]

the quality of discovery writing is no where near TNG at its best and that is an issue that cannot be consolidated by a 5-1 female to male ratio, which to be honest is not the reality of the space exploring workforce.

That's not the ratio of the Discovery cast. I can see your POV that Discovery isn't as great a show as TNG. But neither was Enterprise. In both cases the gender of the cast has nothing to do with it.

 

[gvn2fly]

I think the fact that of all the star trek series, Discovery been the weakest in story telling, writing , intellectual depth, character development and world building really hurts all the diversity and really hurts women, because at the end of it all, the worst star trek tv show is female driven. not the best look is it?

*I* think Enterprise is by far the worst Star Trek show. I just realized the worst Star Trek tv show is male driven. Not the best look for male driven casts is it.

Just posting the above to point out how ridiculous your arguments sound.

 

[Tuskin38]

who are also diverse even in a way that is not reality since 65% of those who work in nasa are males and 35% are females.

NASA is in the 21st century, Discovery isn't.

 

[valden]

*I* think Enterprise is by far the worst Star Trek show. I just realized the worst Star Trek tv show is male driven. Not the best look for male driven casts is it.

Just posting the above to point out how ridiculous your arguments sound.

I think discovery is worse because discovery show runners are not top tier tv personal. i am not one of those old trekkies but i do think they have a point when they say it was not the best choice that alex kurtzman was given the key to star trek. His writing body of work is not well acclaimed like say Ryan Murphy or even Joss Whedon.

NASA is in the 21st century, Discovery isn't.

yeah sure, but I still think in the future, million of years from now, the ratio will likely not be 80% female and 20% male. i think we will be a nearer balance of 50/50 or 50-45 male to female and the males will be more competent than discovery does not like to really show.

I really desliked that short trek tribble episode. this is bad trek to me.

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again, it shows what makes TNG a masterpiece.

 

[fireproof78]

*I* think Enterprise is by far the worst Star Trek show. I just realized the worst Star Trek tv show is male driven. Not the best look for male driven casts is it.

Just posting the above to point out how ridiculous your arguments sound.

It is a ridiculous argument. Discovery struggles but not because of the ratio.

 

[Takeru]

the show should not even be having 5 females to 1 male.

Does it even have that? Let's count all actors in the opening credits over all seasons:
5 women:
Sonequa Martin-Green
Mary Wiseman
Michelle Yeoh
Rachael Ancheril
Tig Notaro

1 non binary:
Blu del Barrio

7 men:
Doug Jones
Shazad Latif
Anthony Rapp
Jason Isaacs
Wilson Cruz
Anson Mount
David Ajala

And before you say "What about the recurring cast?!", let's count those too (going by character names this time because I'm lazy):

13 women:
Detmer
Owosekun
Airiam
Dr. Pollard
L'Rell
Amanda
Nielsen
Cornwell
Gabrielle Burnham
Number 1
Osyra
Federation president
vulcan leader

10 men:
Rhys
Bryce
Spock
Sarek
Kol
Leland
Admiral Vance
Gray
Kovich
Ruon Tarka

Hardly an overwhelmingly female cast, it just appears that way because for the first time in Star Trek history they have more female cast members than seats in a shuttle.

 

[SJGardner]

Does it even have that? Let's count all actors in the opening credits over all seasons:

Well, of course, all these men are just emasculated beta malewives, of course they have to be counted among women. Only übermacho Alpha and Sigma males are allowed to be counted as men.

For completion's sake, and considering how often some of the characters you mentioned appeared (a handful of episodes in a single season in some cases), a few more men could be added to the recurring cast:
Linus
Ryn the Andorian
Su'Kal
Dr. Hirai the astrolinguist who can't stop eating
Christopher who took over for Bryce (stretching it, but Bryce didn't do much more either)

To avoid "artificially inflating the numbers of men", lets add some women too:
"May Ahearn" (dubious - I don't think the Jah'Sepp actually have a gender, they just took on the form of someone Tilly knew)
General Ndoye
Zora (she clearly identifies as female)

If we also counted returning guests, you could add Harry Mudd and Zareh to the men, Siranna and Queen Po to the women, and maybe some more.

 

[1001001]

It’s actually kind of depressing how often that meme applies these days…

 

[XCV330]

the show should not even be having 5 females to 1 male. also what is the ratio at NASA?

Around 34% as of 2020. Not the answer you were looking for? Not perfect, but improving.
Non-white employees comprise about 29.4 percent of the workforce.

BTW, I would not expect you to know this, as knowing things might not be in your bailiwick judging from your posting but you can verify it for yourself at :
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/fy2020_md_715_report_signed_tagged.pdf

"Facts are stubborn things" - John Adams

BTW, a lot of work towards making NASA a more inclusive agency was aided by Nichelle Nichols during her time working for NASA to help recruit new astronauts. She is a real pioneer.

 

[FederationHistorian]

I'm not sure the Chain ever had much of a chance of working because Discovery is not really into world building in the way DS9 was. In many ways TNG set up the framework for the 24th century but DS9 made it come alive at whole other level. It was smart to have characters to tell stories from a non-federation perspective IMO.

Its a fault of Discovery, as I'm sure exposition related to worldbuilding and character development wouldn't take that many lines. The worldbuilding could happen. The writing on Discovery isn’t tight enough to explore the Emerald Chain, and middle deck characters, and the politics of the Federation, and the A plots and B plots involving Burnham/Saru/Tilly/Stamets & Culber, and the Discovery crew adapting and settling into the 31nd century, and the Discovery crew reflecting on various people/events that may or should have impacted them (NX era being revered as founders of the Federation, Klingon War, mirror universe, Pike & Spock, Section 31 & Control, exploring beyond the Galactic Barrier) all at the same time.

the quality of discovery writing is no where near TNG at its best and that is an issue that cannot be consolidated by a 5-1 female to male ratio

If the show favoured women the way you claim, then going by the standard of TNG, DS9 & VOY, it would be 2-1 in favor of women for the main cast. With ENT, it would be 3-1 in favour or women. By TOS & TAS standards, the cast that get top billing would be solely women.

DIS is actually 1-1 for representation in S1, S3 & S4.Neither men or women are favoured in main billing in those seasons. S2 is 2-1 in favour of men. A season where women outnumber men in the main cast billing has never been done before, and I'm not bothered if SMG, Wiseman, Ancheril & Notaro lead a cast with Jones, Rapp and Wilson in S5.

Now, there are far more focus on female roles in roles usually held by males (bridge crew, political figures) in this series, that is true. There's just no macho character in the vein of Kirk or Worf or Trip that are being played by men; machismo is more likely to be explored with a supporting character like Detmer. The series is also not looking into male friendships like Bashir and O'Brien; its traded that for a romantic relationship with two male characters in Stamets and Culber, something that might not have happened in Berman just had a gay character in one of the other series when he was at the helm.

Its okay to lament that there are no traditional male characters. But its also important to remember that DIS is not trying to be traditional in the first place.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

the quality of discovery writing is no where near TNG at its best and that is an issue that cannot be consolidated by a 5-1 female to male ratio, which to be honest is not the reality of the space exploring workforce.NASA has two-third male employees and one-third female employees.

I really hope you can see my pov, I think you misunderstood why i brought up TNG. Also TNG was diverse in leads even for the 80s and 90s..

2 females (Deena and Crusher)
2 white males (Riker and Picard)
1 black male (Geordi)
1 black male alien (Worf)
1 chalk-white male android (Data) (who faced a lot of prejudice that gave us maybe the best episode Measure of a Man)

But TNG had subtance, discovery does not and that indeed affects the characters, who are also diverse even in a way that is not reality since 65% of those who work in nasa are males and 35% are females.

I think discovery is worse because discovery show runners are not top tier tv personal. i am not one of those old trekkies but i do think they have a point when they say it was not the best choice that alex kurtzman was given the key to star trek. His writing body of work is not well acclaimed like say Ryan Murphy or even Joss Whedon.


yeah sure, but I still think in the future, million of years from now, the ratio will likely not be 80% female and 20% male. i think we will be a nearer balance of 50/50 or 50-45 male to female and the males will be more competent than discovery does not like to really show.

I really desliked that short trek tribble episode. this is bad trek to me.

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again, it shows what makes TNG a masterpiece.

- There is no gender imbalance on Discovery.
- There is no concerted effort to practice "reverse sexism" or to emasculate men on Discovery.
- The current ratio of men to women in NASA, which you didn't get right anyway, has zero bearing on the ratio of men to women in a 23rd/32nd century idealized space opera fantasy universe, and even then, you didn't get that ratio right, either.
- What made TNG a masterpiece has nothing to do with a fixation on demographics above all else.
- People have had it with your narrowminded sexist one-trick pony routine. Discuss something else besides how men are emasculated and outnumbered by women, or women of color are too masculine looking.

Warning for trolling again. Comments to PM. And this thread is being closed.